Next scorpion buff

So I think the jury is still out whether the scorpion has been buffed enough yet.

Let’s put that aside for a moment and assume the scorpion needs another buff.

What do you think that buff should be.

I think their movement speed could be increased from .65 to .7 or .75 tiles.

For comparison, onagers are .6 and archers are .96

Thought process is increasing their movement speed doesn’t actually make them stronger, but helps preserve the mobility of your army comp, which in turn should make them easier to use in practice if you mix some in. It’ll also help them a little bit to run away from onagers/light cav.

It really shouldn’t change their utility or any of their counters, but just make them more convenient to use.

What do you guys think?

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I’m totally against buffing scorpions, unless they nerf romans. That’s because nothing counters those except BBC and horse cavalry cost-effectively, and scorpions are bad for the meta, which is already dominated by horse cavalry. Some number reference here:

My intent wasn’t to consider civ specific scorpions……but yeah, Roman’s definitely don’t need a scorpion buff. I’ll give you that.

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I don’t think Scorps need a buff.
Imo they need a redesign.
The basically area damage is too similar to mangonels but not at the same level. It can’t be.

I think Scorps should instead deal high single-target damage. This would destinct them more from mangonels and also solve the “massing” issue quite elegently. Cause then you basically only can use them as a support in low numbers anyways.

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This is an excellent idea tbh. Give them like 30 pierce damage, but then restrict it to one unit, and identify the best range to apply it to. They should ideally have just a little less range than mangonels and archers.

Civs often define a unit. Battle elephants got nerfed to shit because of Khmer.

Even otherwise, this is a unit that makes archer and infantry play more difficult, while also not taking that much skill to use. Archer play is already super hard, why do you want to make it more difficult?

Scorpions actually need micro to fully exploit its potential… Target the furthest unit possible to have more units hit. Scorpion requires more skills to play than onagers.

Would you elaborate why archer play is hard?

This would make them a discount bombard cannon dude albeit with no splash damage.

Speed will be helpful even to 0.8. But having them become affected by ballistics will be more helpful. We need to differentitate value proposition of mangonel from scorpions by making them easier to micro.

Romans can have their gold discount nerfed to 40% and have siege towers affected by the same. If they can’t make these units work with their OP infantry bonuses, I don’t know which civ can.

Dormans as well have made a power creep which makes units Scorpions less useful. I think Dormans need a cost nerf. They need to cost as much as cannon galleons and reduce range by 1 to 11 tiles as well so that at least bombard cannon can counter them from shore.

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They should just get +1 range with the Heavy Scorpion upgrade, just like Onagers get and they’ll be good enough.

Just because one civ has like, several bonuses for Heavy Scorpion doesn’t mean the unit itself is OP, and honestly, I don’t think it’ll be oppressive even with Romans. If you die to Roman Scorpions while you have your own Onagers right now, well - it’s kind of your fault for playing bad I guess.

Scorpions capping out at 7+1 range just makes the Heavy Scorpion feel so worthless.

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I’d agree on the ballistics effect Scorpion as well and Speed increase.
Romans should get a lesser Discount. Maybe -33%gold or -25% on both wood and gold.

As it stands right now, scorpions are pretty much only viable If you have a bonus for them.
If the generic unit becomes viable -60% gold cost on an above generic unit is way too strong. If such a discount isn’t OP then the generic unit is way too bad. Imagine any other unit being better than generic and having -60%gold cost. It would be hilariously broken.
Almost all mayorly discounted Units in the game Miss some important techs to balance it out (Goth infantry Missing final Armor, Polish Knights missing Paladin and Armor, Berbers missing Paladin, Byzantine camels Missing blood lines and blast furnace, etc.).

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Khmer TB needs to change then, bare minimum become a civ bonus if not removed entirely.

But rhey need to be able to attack ground regardless of whatever else the change is.

The unit was initially designed to function similar to the archer line, every clown that has changed them since then has forgotten what they were designed around and forgotten to make up for that change.

Agree on that as well. I think it’s safer to give them small speed buffs/attack ground before we start buffing their range. As range makes the bigger impact in the more toxic situations and more likely to get people to complain, regardless of balance.

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One over tuned civ shouldn’t prevent everyone else.

You’re also the guy that said Onagers don’t counter scorps? Without using any micro?

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I think it’ll be quite funny if it won’t be, though I don’t mind. It’s not like there aren’t strong synergies already with other team bonuses in the game for other units, so I doubt Scorpions would become that problematic either.

A team of Romans, Khmer, maybe Chinese and one of the other Siege civs making Scorpions their core unit would be a cool synergistic line-up. Not entirely different from other strong synergistic team bonuses in the game!

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Sharing a post I made on a related thread:

Maybe ballistic should affect them for all civs not just Romans if your proposal becomes true. Because it will be very easy to dodge.

Villager garrisoning in house can be the new TB. It will be way cooler imo and I don’t think it will be OP.

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Roman scorpions. Not just said, showed. You were the passive aggressive denier.
You have a problem with that?

Bombard cannons have far more range, and they do melee damage. If they do this, scorpions will have a better defined use case.

They could even buff them more.

I have no problem with this, but for most players in most situations, this ranges from very slightly helpful to a complete noob trap. One of those things that sounds good on paper, but it has almost none of the advantages people assume and several drawbacks they probably haven’t thought of. Bolts have a small collision box, and scorps have a frame delay unlike mangos, so you have to be very precise with aim and timing, all for a much lower payoff than landing a mango shot. It also doesn’t grant +3 passthrough range from where you target, as some have imagined. It’s situationally okay for getting around the minimum range, but that’s about it. But if that’s what you want, just reduce the minimum range.

Heavy scorpion has been buffed 3 patches in a row. Maybe this time just the scorpion will be buffed.

BTW, a scorpion buff automatically means elephant nerf which is really bad for the game.

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They could just reduce the bonus damage along with whatever buff.

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My big question is:
What is the scorpion supposed to do?
Ie what is its niche? Its role? What does it counter?

(And if the answer is “counter units standing in a line” does that role need to exist?)

I propose to make the scorpion the counter unit for siege.
It’s already in the right position in the building. Like scirms or halbs.

I would focus the role of the bombard cannon on countering trebuchets. And make scorpion the siege counter instead of the mangonel.

So mangonel is area damage, scorpion is anti siege and bombard is anti treb.
And all siege is anti building.

Alternatively, make it counter heavy armor or high pierce armor. But in any case, start from “why does this unit exist”.

I think scorpions just need to move faster. I know it’s not historically accurate but given their cheaper cost, why not make them faster?