(NO OFFICIAL) Balance changes for the next big patch

You can use monks against 1 tc fc-castle drop Monaspa. Its not a ranged unit like conqs. I’m not opposed to 1.9 rof for non-elites either. Probably shouldn’t drop the rof and increase training time simultaneously. Btw, increasing number of units for +1 attack by 2 is a bigger nerf since you have to pay for a lot more units, wait more time to get the same benefit.

Again this should be either one not both. Either -50 wood, leave the rest of the civ as it is. Or no nerf to the start but remove scout regen, nerf Monaspa rof or base attack or units per extra attack.

Dozens of games from Mr.Yo in events and ladder, Vivi in TTL-2 gold, a few from Mbl on ladder, Liereyy in warlords alpine map and the showmatch against sebastian, Tatoh in the showmatch against Vinchester for the arabia 1v1 event. Plenty of games in the past few months itself.

No they weren’t. First of all this is from a time where Koreans had 0 military bonus on land, no wood discount for land military, no free armor for ranged units, much weaker towers. Its literally a D tier vs an F tier civ from 2019.
Second, Viper has a masterpiece with literally every unit, even with urumi swordsmen, flaming camels. It doesn’t make those units OP. He was far too OP compared to others and tried the new units out in different ways, early game, all-in castle age etc. A lot of them worked for him, very few didn’t.
Finally, at min 45, with 50+ Elite Konniks, he kills a bunch of Arbalesters and Korean halbs. Even the present day Konnik would do that and probably 50+ of any cav unique unit except Magyar Huszar.

He was way better than everyone back then, so yes, he trolled around everyone in the ladder.

First nerf was fine for the unit itself because 35 charge and double the charge on ranged units was broken. After that it was just the civ that was too good on passive maps. Instead of nerfing the eco discount from 50 to 40%, the coustillier charge, they just had to change eco from 50% to 33%, nerf flemish and leave the rest of the civ as it was. Or in other words, given the 33% eco discount and abysmal flemish rev, Coustillier with 25 charge attack wont be OP. Its produced at a time where its not too difficult for the opponent to defend these days.

A lot of this depends on how one civ’s early eco and military advantages matches with the other. Obviously this game even with Camels, Hera might have lost but that’s because Mongol is much weaker than Georgians on empire wars. Imagine RM game on a map with extra sheep like ghost lake, Monaspa + pikes against OG Gurjara Camel + chakrams. Monaspa+pikes will seem useless in that case. Today Tarkans and Huns CA seem alright. If we remove the 100 wood penalty, it will be a whole different story.

Didn’t read the thread after OP. So pardon if I miss something. My proposal for next “Big Balance Patch” will be making Infantry as meta unit as Cavalry and Archer.

Needs a lot of changes to Arabia, walls, militia line speed, towers etc. Otherwise, its extremely difficult to make infantry good in castle age while also not being overpowered in situations where they’re currently decent.

Pre-arrowslits tech researched in castle age that garrisoning militia grants +1/+2/+3 atk for watch/guard/keep. And the imp tech remove the need of garrisoning militia? Cut the tech research cost and time.

No, not that late and not by garrisoning militia-line. That’s an extremely situational benefit. I meant towers in general should get better, become more mainstream. The starting base should spread out a bit, meaning wood, berries and gold farther from tc by an additional 4-5 tiles. Towers should do 5 or 6 damage instead of 3 or 4 against vills, take lesser damage from vills but more damage from militia line. Civs that have a default bonus on their militia line from feudal age should get some bonus on their towers so that they can play supplies maa + towers. Militia line should also be able to break unbuilt walls, gates and house foundations a lot faster. Or repairing houses, walls and gates should cost 2x just like tc instead of half the resources.

You aren’t referring to castle age? Longswords+ guard towers?

I think the towers and maa have to start in mid-late feudal and then get upgraded. But even if you hit castle age and want to go for longswords + guard towers, the balance changes to make that feasible should be something beneficial by default. Either through stone collection rate, market rates for stone, tower accuracy, rof or some influence on militia line by towers like an aura effect or vice-versa. If you have to build a university and spend resources to get a tech to make this strategy good, it won’t be feasbile any more than now.

Then, tower upgrade has to be allowed to research in watch towers at least. And allow towers to train new infantry-line that is less food intensive and more gold intensive.

Some units in scenario editors can be the new line?

That’s what a “Big patch” is supposed to introduce.

Yes tower upgrade available in towers itself will be a great change. But I wouldn’t introduce those 2 units you’ve shared. Both the units are practically the same as 2021 longswords by stats, so it won’t be necessary to add a redundant unit to towers or have towers produce units in general.
The building should not take 12 damage from villagers. And the presence of militia should somehow benefit the towers. It can either be faster to construct, repair, cost less, get higher rof, hp or some other new mechanic when militia line units are present. Some of it could be generic changes, some introduced through techs, some as bonus for civs that get a benefit on their maa opening. Longswords will become a good unit to play if the opponent is forced to migrate a lot to collect resources and there are multiple unprotected areas. Ranged units can’t be split and micro-ed everywhere.

Mu goal is to change the counter system like this -

Making Militia line actually a soft counter to Knight line.

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Right, I will totally build a Stable, make Bloodlines, +2 armor and spend 135 res a unit to kill archers.

Knights being able to fight infantry (LS and to a degree pikes) is the only thing keeping them viable in the meta, make LS a counter and you will see Pike LS Mangonel every game, stale for stale, I’d rather have a stale Knight meta tbh.

Also from both a historic and an imagination perspective, there is no reason why a foot soldier should beat an elite warrior riding a horse.

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I think swordsmen should have a clear niche. I think their bonus against buildings should be increased considerably, perhaps doubled, from +2/+3/+4/+4 to +4/+6/+8/+8. However, Arson should probably be removed if this is done.

Also, the Goth bonus should probably be reduced to a mere +1 instead of the staggered +1 per age starting in Feudal that it is currently.

No, I can easily take out moderate AIs.

I think it can be a hard counter when combining with other units but the combination should be costly.

Like the suggestion of towers+LS, I think it can hard counter xbow or even cav archers but costly and even delay castles.

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Lol. Are you serious?

My idea is exact opposite. Reduce it or just remove it. Make them tough…closer to Obuch.

Reducing armor like Obuch? I think the only one that swordman can reduce is min/max conversion. (and probably set a cap)

No no. Just the base stat. Obuch is 80 HP with 2/2 armor. I think LS should have 70 HP, 1/1 armor or 1/2 armor. and lose Supplies. Maybe even Gambeson be replaced with 2nd Squires but only militia line.

The above diagram is not fully correct because different units have a different purpose and timing window. This counter diagram is just useful for an open fight outcome prediction. To have longswords opening counter scout into knight or drush into knight gameplays, you’d need a way of getting decent value from man-at-arm upgrade, supplies in feudal age most of the time.
You can’t do that without changing the current feudal meta and having a way to force fights. Tower rushes, similar defensive structures are a good way to do that. That way, at least in more than a third of the games, players might feel like “ok, i’m going to do a feudal drush, spears into towers” or “scouts+spears/skirms into towers, supplies maa” when they feel their opponent is going to do 2 stable knights. The change has to originate from earlier stages and be massive enough to disrupt the current meta while also not completely reversing the situation where everyone begins picking Goths, Slavs and spamming maa.
I can brainstorm ideas but I don’t have a clear set of changes in my mind which can bring about this balance. But somehow constructed towers should make maa and above stronger and vice-versa. Walling should get weaker, resource control should get harder. Like the forests, berries and main gold should be farther away from tc and at a distance from each other.

That’s too weak. But I like the idea of improving their ability to take down buildings. It should be restricted to walls and gates, stone defense armor classes and not impact other buildings. Hp of houses should get modified or their repair cost should be 2x like town centers instead of 0.5x like other buildings. This way they can do well against quick-walls and greedy feudal plays but won’t be able to take out all buildings in a short span of time.

That’s a bit too much, still won’t solve the problem. Its only going to make them situationally overpowered and lead to hoang, white phosphorus, youpudding like gimmick builds where players use market to buy food and keep spamming these units with siege. Obuch has such high stats because its a castle unit.