Guys JPK werent OP never. That stats reduction should be optional as dutch halberdiers or doppels cards, joined to the cost reduction. The speed buff is fine with the original price.
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Back in the day I loved to stealth to catch artillery lines and wipe them.
Okay, I went and did a bunch of testing in the scenario editor to get some real numbers to talk about whether scaling up or down in cost makes more sense for melee units.
Methodology
Please note: there isnât any micro here. Do not expect the same results versus humans.
This test has 3 main units:
- The current (not PUP) Jaguar Prowl Knight
- A modded âchampionâ Jaguar Prowl Knight with +20% HP and +20% Attack (with a hypothetical 20% increase in resource cost)
- A standard Musketeer in the Scenario Editor. Musketeers were chosen because of their unique characteristic of soft countering Jaguar Prowl Knights (range) while also being countered by them (bonus damage). Additionally, larger numbers of musketeers will demonstrate how range units scale so much better than melee units when massed.
I went through the following tests:
- The two Jaguar Prowl Knights head to head (cost adjusted)
a. 5 vs 6, 10 vs 12, 20 vs 24, and 40 vs 48 - Both Jaguar Prowl Knights vs same cost Musketeers
a. 9, 18, 36, 72 - Both Jaguar Prowl Knights vs 33.3% more Musketeers
a. 12, 24, 48, 96
After running all of the scenarios, the +20% scaled up Jaguar Prowl knights performed better or the same.
- Jaguar Prowl Knight head to head
a. The +20% won every round. Interestingly, they preformed best in smaller battles (6v5 they won with 50% still standing) - Vs standard Musketeers
a. The +20% performed better than standard JPKs, but not as drastically as the other two tests. - Vs +33% resource Musketeers
a. This is where the +20% JPKs really shined. The base JPKs could only beat the smallest batch of Musketeers. The +20% JPKs were able to come out on top for the smaller bouts, but lost to the largest mass of muskets (96).
Full results for those interested:
- Head to Head
a. +20% won all rounds, 3 alive (540 resources, 60%), 5 alive (900 resources, 50%), 9 alive (1620 resources, 45%), 9 alive (1620 resources, 23%)
2.Vs base Muskets
a. Base JPKs: 4 alive (600 resources), 7 alive (1050 resources), 16 alive (2400 resources), 20 alive (3000 resources)
b. +20% JPKS: 5 alive (900 resources, 50% higher than base), 9 alive (1620 resources, 54% higher than base), 14 alive (2520 resources, 5% higher), 23 alive (4140 resources , 38% higher than base) - VS +33% resources Muskets
a. Base JPKS: 4 alive (600 resources), lost 8 muskets still alive (33%), lost 14 muskets still alive (29%), lost 53 muskets still alive (55%!)
b. +20% JPKs: 5 alive (900 resources), 5 alive (900 resources), 3 alive (540 resources), lost 25 still alive (26%)
I would still need to test the exact scenario the PUP is in (since it isnât -20% for both), but IN GENERAL, it seems that scaling the Jaguar Prowl Knight down is actually a NERF.
I would recommend scaling the Jaguar Prowl Knight up, making it more expensive with higher stats.
I would also recommend another buff since it loses to massed Musketeers (when they have 33% more invested resources than you) even when they arenât microâd. I would recommend a larger multiplier against heavy infantry so that they can cleanly 2 shot them after tweaking their base stats (currently itâs a 4 shot with a lot of overkill).
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I gotta play more of the PUP. I didnât know of the changes on the Aztecs.
Have you used the war ceremony?? Cause its not the same bonus for both units. More stats more bonus
No. The war ceremony was not used. I changed the champion technology to give +20% hp and +20% attack.
The war ceremony was left out for a fair comparison.
You have say it, fair comparison. With the nerf a legendary JPK do 13 less damage than before, becoming worse for each bonus
I didnât do the tests on the PUP changes, so I canât speak to the 13. I went the opposite direction and compared based JPK (240 HP and 20 attack) to a hypothetically adjusted JPK with +20% cost, attack and HP (288 HP, 24 Attack). In my original post, you can see the breakdown in the âMethodologyâ button.
I think our outcomes are the same. Reducing stats wonât help the Jaguar Prowl Knight. Additionally, they need a buff to do better against massed Musketeers.
That is in a utopia, but in most cases, players know about jags stealth and have its explorer with the army all the time so they can detect. With explorer protecting the artillery + skirm + musk composition stealth coyotes and jaguars are useless.
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I think the solution would be to leave JPK cost-hp-attack as it is right now but maintain the actual speed buff.
Itâs simple and thatâs all we wanted since always.
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I hope my posts donât come across as disliking the speed buff. The speed buff is definitely needed.
I had seen it, the 20% better is the JPK âbefore pupâ and the basic one âthe PUP oneâ hypothetycally. If you see the stats with and without dance you will see that the difference is bigger than 20%. In the PUP JPK reach 48 attack full upgraded + dance while it reachs 61 in the original version.
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But this is easy to counter with spies and explorers. I donât see stealth as sn advantage. More like a niche thing.
2 Likes
I think Jaguar Prowl Knights have always underperformed. They do melee damage, and the vast majority of heavy infantry have melee resistance. The most common heavy infantry also happen to be ranged units. Its basically impossible to win a fight cost effectively with jpk against most muskets because the breakpoints, armour and sheer expense of jpk are so poor and theyâre so very slow even low level players can kite them easily. Honestly, I think they need to be just like, better vs cav (eg. 3x vs cav) instead of trying to make them super viable vs muskets. Theyâre great vs halbs and stuff-- which aztec needs! slingers are not friends with speedy dopps or samurai and similar stuff. NOT FRIENDSâbut against muskets, idk i think jpk will be stupid broken before they end up being good vs muskets (in their current heavy inf melee resist <5 speed form). With only 2x vs cav they kinda underperform there too. I mean, think about it 18x2 base damage on tad, 20x2 damage on de (pre pup). Thats less than an age 2 pike and equal to an age 2 pike respectively on an age 3 unit that costs 150 res. Closest unit comparison (for damage) is Changdao swordsmen and those guys are CHEAP. Why would you ever make jpk vs cav when puma and erks are extremely effective at their jobs and skull knights fill the anticav monster heavy inf in an altogether superior manner? Either jpk need to be better vs cav or completely reworked. I appreciate this iteration on the PUP for cheaper jpk to be more cost effective but I really truly think the unit is inherently flawed all the way back to 2005
3 Likes
I dont think that they have to be boost vs cav. Aztecs is the civ with the most anticav units: puma, eagles, skulls and jaguars.
They have more attack vs cav than a musketeer, the unit which is suposed to replace.
Vs cav they have to use ERKs and pumas, that kill entire armies of gendarmes.
Maybe they can give them the 2 kind of res, as some african units have. A bit one to not become them OP
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I donât think JPK is supposed to replace Musk unit for the Aztec. In my opinion devs wants JPK to replace Otontin Slingers in fights against heavy infantry.
Otontin Slinger doesnât have Counter Infantry Rifling and is generally very weak late game unit so it should have a better replacement. Unfortunately JPK is very vulnerable against both Light Infantry (because they are their direct counters) and Heavy Ranged Infantry (because they usually have a strong range attack) and JPK does not have a range resistance to mitigate it.
Giving JPK more speed is of course a great decision. Now it has a better chance to engage. But still I donât think he is capable of cost effectively fighting against Musketeer type units.
Boosting their multiplier against cavalry also doesnât make much sense because Aztec has plenty of really great units for that task. I think I agree with @Ekdal1378 about their double resistance. Additional Range Resistance added to their stats would maybe finally make them viable option.
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Another idea i had was to give them a charge ability, like nizams or caroleans.
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Yeap, I also suggested it some time ago. This is a nice option too 
Musketeers and JPK have bonus vs cav and can kill other HI infantry effectively: musks at range and JPK at melee. Also they are though to be versatile units unlike otontin and skirmishers or urumis. Their main problem is that they have to get to melee fights.
Lower their cav mutliploee by one and increase the bonus against infstry instead each time by 0.5 when you use the town center jaguar big button?