Okay, Lithuanians might need a nerf

In Empire Wars mode only, that extra 150 food at the start + strong trash gives them a strong start and has lead to a very high pick, ban, and win rate in the two RedBull Tournaments so far.
IN RBW they were picked 5 times
won 4 and lost 1 game.

in RBW2 they have
Picked 12 out of 12 series
Banned 4 out of 12.
played 7 out of non banned picks with 5 wins and 2 losses.
you can see all stats for both tournaments here:

Thoughts and opinions?

3 Likes

Simple
Just disable that +150 food at the start at that mode, like the Chinese and Mayan penalties in Empire Wars

11 Likes

very simple fix, i just wanted to get more opinions then just my own.

question for you about the chinese penalty - they start with normal amount of workers as everyone else? do they still lose the regular resources or is it just like in a campaign where whatever workers you would normally get, but without penalties?

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In Empire Wars all civs start with the same villagers as far I know, and to compesnsate that they still start with the same resources as all other civs.

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well that’s at least fair. no upside but no downside.

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Ah, I figured we’d be talking about how they have access to one of the strongest cavalry units in the game and it only costs like 50 gold
Fair regardless

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no, even with as strong as the leitis is, it’s still hard to marshal in the castle age, and it’s weak to archers. and Lithuanian win rates in random map games are balanced. any nerf to the Leitis would require compensation elsewhere IMHO.

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To be honest any top player barely complained about the Leitis, and the cost switch was absolutely needed, 80 gold cost was just unnaffordable for an unit with less resistance and PA that is supposed to counter armored and expensive units like Teutonic Knights and Boyars (Both which are even more expensive), and right now is a mainstream unit that players can use effectively but still have weakness with less resistance.

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not only that, but the leitis gives us a heavy cavalry unit that actually sees play that isn’t named “Paladin”.
you nerf the leitis and watch as Lithuanians become another Franks, Persians, or Teutons.

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Yeah, y’all really can’t convince me that a unit that’s like a castle age cavalier that ignores armor (makes it virtually impervious to other knights) costing 40 gold is balanced. Pros complained about the leitis before the cost reduction mainly because paladins were just more reliable since you didn’t need a castle to make them but it was still well known that leitises on their own were pretty insane.

No it isn’t. It has equal stats to a knight except attack, which it has more of. It’s BETTER vs archers compared to knights and cavalier, since leitises have more hp than cavaliers.

Yeah, like most unique units, so I don’t see the problem. Given that Lithuanians have more than enough in their defensive options between cheap trash and hillforts, once you get that castle up you’re good

Win rates are an unreliable citation for balance; just because an 1100 doesn’t know how to make use of every advantage his civ gives him doesn’t imply a civ is bad, and the same logic equally applies if it’s not being picked by pros (since there are always going to be safer picks in civilizations at the top level.)
I don’t think you need to change Lithuanians to make the Leitis more realistically priced.

80 gold cost was a lot and I wouldn’t mind it being reduced
But there’s a difference between reasonably decreasing the gold cost to be something close to a knight’s - contrasted to outright halfing it. Leitises are better than knights in virtually every way except the fact that they’re made from a castle; so they should be priced accordingly, as a knight unit. They’re cheaper than ■■■■■■■ camels. Make them cost less food and gold than a knight? sure. 40 gold for one though? That’s absurd.

Just because pro players rarely go for Boyars doesn’t mean they’re not used, Boyars are paladin killers and I’ve used them plenty of times with success. Outside of that and a few minor mentions like Keshiks, there just in general aren’t many cavalry unique units.

Every one of those civs play out completely differently in 1v1s though. All Persians can really do is Paladin/Camel, trashbows, and fire ships but Teutons are one of the most open ended european civs and you can do way more with them than just stable (though at this point it’s probably unwise to since there’s no reason to not go for their overbuffed knight line) like pike siege monk, Franks naturally play in to Paladins but I’ve also had my share of Franks games where I barely made cavalry and mained for Throwing Axemen and hand cannons (like vs goths)

Lithuanians are still an amazing civilization without the Leitis that are nearly as open ended as Teutons (if not more because of their range options), and even if the Leitis was nerfed it doesn’t mean it’ll fall out of use lol, like I don’t see how it costing 60-70 gold would be anything more than a minor setback since it’s already such a powerhouse of a unit,
I remember one game, wasn’t the most serious game and had whacky settings ( it was like 3v3v2 ) and my team of 3 died to someone going full Leitis who had a free boom while we were killing everyone else. Chewed through halbs, ballista eles, halbs (yes, i’m mentioning again), arbs… Not the greatest example but I do remember back in the beta I was one of the people that documented several tests with the unit. Though I’m still not a fan of it conceptually, I’m more upset at how a unit that has 12 attack that ignores armor, has the same armor and speed as a knight (the single melee armor they have isn’t felt as a difference when you’re actually fighting other knights, fight me) and hard counters virtually any paladin heavy army composition costs 40 gold. You can reduce the training time, but 40 gold per Leitis is broken.

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Man the only unit that gets around that gold cost is the Cataphract, and unlike Leitis Cataphracts have hidden armor vs halbs and camels, without even mentioning their much faster attacks, bonus vs infantry which turns them into halb killer and Logistica, in any regard Cataphract remains a much stronger unit, the lower PA do little harm for that.
And keep in mind that they lack Gold Shaft Mining, enough to balance them. Without even mentioning that if it was so broken as you point they inmediatly nerfed them in the last two patches.

Oh ya the Konnik also cost 70 gold but they have two lives, attack faster with Stirrups and can be created with Kreposts.

2 Likes

It costs 50 gold, not 40 gold and requires a castle to train. it also takes 70 food and the civ has zero eco bonuses beyond starting with 150 food. compare that to franks or teutons, two civs that do much better then Lithuanians as a whole.

it has 6 pierce armor max and less health then a paladin by 30. it takes 38 arb shots to kill. compared to the 60 of a paladin.

yeah, but unlike other civs, their eco is lackluster beyond the dark age/early feudal because they get exactly one economy bonus. it also costs 70 food, which is very prohibitive at a time when you are trying to mass up workers.

even higher winrates are balanced, and how often do you see Lithuanians used in tournaments outside of Empire Wars? very rarely. Extremely rarely. even in clown cup 3, which is solely arena, and arguably the best map for Lithuanians (Via the pros) they were only used 5 times, and went 2 and 3. food for thought.

Why? they aren’t nearly as strong as civs like Khmer, or Britons, or Mayans, or Aztecs, but we’re going to nerf a civ that doesn’t see play in random map style tournaments but extremely rarely?
we’d see them even LESS then.

so we can’t use low elo games to determine balance, but we can use them to show that boyars are used. you got great logic there.

the point is all those civs rely on the knight/paladin as the back bone of their army. we shouldn’t be encouraging further civs to use the paladin, as we have plenty of them anyway.

win-rates and tournament usage COMPLETELY DISAGREE with you here, if they were amazing they would see the use you see from Mayans, Aztecs, Etc. They are a good civ at best. 70 gold for a unit that is harder to mass then a knight is absolutely ridiculous. the most i could see it going to is 60 gold, and even then it would absolutely be feasible to ask for a compensation buff elsewhere

or are you also asking to nerf Mayans, Aztecs, Franks, Britons, Vikings, Celts, and any other civ that is used more then Lithuanians at the pro level? because if Lithuanians deserve an uncompensated nerf, those civs definitely deserve one.
here you go - this should give you a good idea of what pros think about Lithuanians


even on their best map, hera barely puts them in top 10.

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Well just look at the Byzantine defenses and with zero eco bonus so they can spam Cataphracts, then do they need nerfs then?

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honestly, to me, cataphracts are scarier then Leitis because they have absurd attack speed, the trample, all that bonus damage, and resistance on top of it. literally the only thing that can fight them is archers.

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As Viper points with the Cataphract, once are fully upgraded they are one, if not the most, hardest unit to counter alongside Konnik, while the Leitis with all 4 Relics are just pointed as deadly but still hard countered by Halbs and Camels.
Even in the A tier the heavy cavalry boys are here so do they need nerfs?

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yeah. if you’re playing against Lithuanians and let them get 4 relics, you deserve what’s coming to you.

also something to consider. this was before the 600 food cost reduction of cataphracts + logistica.

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Lol they are not hard countered by camels. They can actually trade cost efficiently in terms of gold against heavy camels with 2 relics. They also perform much better than you would think against halberds - if you can take fights with relatively equal numbers, you can trade efficiently in total resources

Simple solution is this, increase their gold cost by +10 / +15 and give them fervor or sanctity for free to increase their possibility of getting relics through speed / survivability. Leitis should not be this efficient against counters. Plus they are market efficient in certain circumstances in trash wars

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Nice, if they are broken by your experience then why you let the enemy to get castles…

By that way even Chu Ko Nu are broken because of their cost and attack without mentioning their extra arrows that melt even skirms and huskarls

No - you just incorrectly said that Leitis are hard countered by camels and halberds at 4 relics. They are not hard countered even at two relics - you didn’t respond to any of the points I brought up which shows me you don’t have correct facts

Chu ko nus are very vulnerable to onagers. Also while they do better against skirmishers / huskarls than most, it’s still not efficient for them. There are tests online. Once huskarls close the distance it’s over with their attack bonuses

And if you think the solution is to win every game in Feudal Age - then we have nothing to talk about

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only in equal numbers. if you’re fighting camels against a Leitis in equal numbers, you already failed.

again, a castle unit vs a barracks unit should never be anywhere near equal numbers.

they are only cost efficient in relatively equal numbers, which simply put, shouldn’t happen.

the only way you get roughly equal numbers of camels vs leitis is if you have 1 stable when they have 1 castle.
assume no conscription. assume 2 relics. assume fully upgraded generic camels vs fully upgraded elite leitis.
a leitis takes 18 seconds to make. a camel 22 seconds.
that means that 10 leitis takes 180 seconds and 10 camels takes 220 seconds. so even with 1 castle vs 1 stable the lithuanians player will have more leitis then camels in the fight. however, if you more accurately assume more stables then castles…
you end up with either 16 camels (176 seconds across 2 stables) vs 10 leitis (180 seconds across 1 castle)
or 10 camels (110 seconds across 2 stables) vs 6 leitis (108 seconds across 1 castle).
in both of those situations the camels win WITH NO LOST UNITS.
that isn’t trading cost effectively.

the only way Leitis trade cost effectively is if you somehow get equal number of units on the field.

yes, they are. the only way they win is in equal numbers. which SHOULDN’T HAPPEN when you’re talking castle units vs non castle units. and also, if you let a Lithuanians player get 4 relics you already messed up bad.

even halbs lose in relatively equal numbers to paladins.

but hey, keep hanging your hat on a spirit of the law video that has no real game applications, and involves using partially dead units as resources lost (he literally counts the resources lost based on overall health left, so partially dead camels count as resources lost, when those units could be healed).
(4 camels survived the 10 vs 10 fight, which means the camel player lost 6*60 gold = 360 gold), and the leitis player lost 10 leitis (which equals 500 gold). but somehow via SotL math, the camel player lost 513 gold despite you being able to heal those units and still deal damage with them. hmm…