https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVryluwC5Bg&ab_channel=BeastyqtSC2 is this true?
For top level players I think it’s mainly the fact that they are easier to raid and harder to defend. Most games at that level are feudal focused, and they can be overpowered by mass units + effective micro.
Also I think it’s because their macro is a bit weaker than most.
Still, top-level play always exposes any balance issues since the slightest problem can tip the scales at that level. So if they are considered useless to top-tier players I think there is a problem.
Pro players also assume things and make mistakes. HRE feudal all in was considered trash until a pro decided it is isn’t then it becomes meta. Similarly if you go and look at the landmark tier videos they all gave cistern of the first hill D tier, yet as soon as someone beats beasty with it then it becomes main stream and used all over the ladder.
I’d agree with you if the pro’s always had a similar consensus on the strongest and weakest civs but if you go through their tier videos you’ll see their opinions often vary wildly. What beasty says is just the most parroted by other gamers as he has the biggest following.
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I can’t even pretend to have a good understanding of the Byzantines so I wouldn’t know about that. But of course I get concerned when a respected pro claims my favourite civ is useless, even if I am a casual. I still can’t shake that feeling the Order lacks…something. Maybe it’s just a lack of a clear gameplan. With something like HRE or French I know exactly what units to build, but the Order doesn’t have any defining bonuses to any specific unit.
I was guilty of assuming they’re fairly bad but I recently looked into them a bit more.
Their aachen chapel is considered bad because people think HRE’s version gives +40% but that’s not true. Firstly the aachen for HRE does nothing that a prelate can’t do, it doesn’t provide any additional boost it’s just more convenient and saves you training another prelate early on. The OOTD aachen actually gives you an extra +15% that you can’t get otherwise. In terms of gather rate a HRE vill goes from 1.00 to 1.40 with aachen while a OOTD vill goes from 1.28 to 1.47 as they have a higher base rate, meaning the aachen is actually better for OOTD.
In terms of upgrades OOTD also benefit more because they have a higher base rate. Food techs increase gather rate by 10% so a normal vill goes from 1.00 to 1.10 while a OOTD vill goes from 1.28 to 1.40 meaning for OOTD the tech gives more like +12% faster food gathering compared to a normal villager.
Similarly the gold/wood techs give +15% while for ootd they are more like +19%.
So what I previously thought was a terrible farm transition can be made much easier by prioritizing wood chopping techs as you get much more value out of them and also place aachen on a woodline. This can be done very well by going 2tc and you can immediately farm transition, you also don’t need to FC like HRE do as the burgrave provides so much value that regnitz is not essential at all. Going 2 tc also allows you to choose elzbech palace over palace of swabia later on.
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Huh, that’s actually quite interesting about the gather rate upgrades, didn’t think it worked like that.
So Aachen does have its merits I see, I got the impression from you that Meinwerk was basically mandatory. I just wish placing farms around Aachen wasn’t so awkward.
Isn’t going 2TC exceedingly dangerous though? I already struggle if attacked early on because their units are so expensive, going 2TC seems like potential suicide.
Yes I also considered aachen as bad until I looked into the numbers.
I think 2tc is viable if you go aachen otherwise I’d say it will be tough. Going aachen and being able to immediately make farms can alleviate the food problems. It’s also not really more of an issue, you training gilded archers from 1 building is just like another civ training from double archery range. English for example can go 2 tc and make archers and if you went aachen you are getting a boost to food and wood rates. I’d still always recommend putting 5 vills on deer in most games just to help with that initial production of units as there is a higher up front cost initially.
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