Organ Gun Buff

portugal is fine. they have one of the best team bonuses, so it would be a mistake to make them a strong civ

other civs should be nerfed closer to portugal’s power level. there are some really broken ones. huns/aztecs/mongols already got nerfed, but they have been eclipsed by the really broken booming civs like poles/cumans/franks (and i guess also indians as a counterpick)

endless power creep is bad. teamgames already get ruined every patch when they try to make civs that can compete with franks. it just leads to even more imbalance

just fix the map pool so that portugal’s bonuses are more relevant instead of this idiotic arabia / arena / blackforest fulcrum. every map should have some use for their ship HP if that’s part of the civ’s balance

in teamgames, sure. In 1v1…

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I agree that poets are fine now, but this post is about organ guns particularly and that ujit is still Up, worse than heavy scorpion, much worse than hussite wagons. Useless in imp.

Organ guns can be made in castle age as soon as you have built a castle, without needing any blacksmith upgrades. You can’t compare against another unit without incorporating the cost of being able to produce the other unit. Heavy scorpion needs 3900 resources investing to get to imperial and get the heavy scorpion upgrade. How many organ guns will the Portugese player have in your base by the time you make your first heavy scorpion?

Wouldnt one compared Organ gun to Scorpion and Elite Organ to heavy Scorpion?
I would assume His Point is that Scorpion Line ist better than OG line. Also you would want to click Up to Imp anyway. Isnt this pretty much Always the Case that If you Spend resources on troops instead of age Up you are ahead in power for a Brief period of time until the Other Player gets some next age Upgrades in. Thats Not specific to Organ gun vs. Scorpion.

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If you do that, then his argument collapses, because organ gun is not strictly worse than scorpion. I have tried both 2 castle organ guns and a pure scorpions strat against extreme AI, the organ guns are massively better. I am by no means a good player, I don’t even try to play this game competitively, but out of the strategies I have tried against extreme AI, 2 castle organ guns on arena gives the easiest victory. This is a video of my bad play crushing the extreme AI with 2 castle organ guns:

The easiest way to beat AoE II DE Extreme AI? - YouTube

A 2 castle all-in also works well with Obuchs, War Wagons, and Hussite Wagons, though none are quite as good as the organ guns IMO. Going all-in with scorpions in castle age is nowhere near as good. I’m sure a better player than me could still win with that strat, but they should still do even better with organ guns.

Are you serious? The fact you rate organ gun all-in higher than the War Wagon really shows you dont play competitively against any average player. Organ Gun in castle is immediately killed by scouts and any of the siege line from rams, scorps and mangos. Even massed crossbows from good archer civs will massacre you.

Hussite Wagon is strictly better than the Organ Gun. Its faster, does very similar damage, has way more HP and pierce armor, protects units from behind, trains faster, no min range, etc. Obuch + Skirm is also a very powerful comp, more so than Organ Guns.

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I disproved this in an earlier post. Maybe you aren’t aware what your wording means. “Strictly” means better, or no worse, in every single aspect. I tested both against a house, and the organ gun took it down in 2/3rds of the time it took a hussite wagon. This makes the hussite wagon slower to beat the AI.

buff elite organ gun if they are weak, but that won’t fix the winrate at all

buffing castle age UUs is always awful because civs can’t counter those

That’s exactly what I said? Caslte age organs are fine. Imperial age organs are garbage and super trash compared to heavy scorpions.

That doesn’t make the organ gun better than the hussite wagon. The hussite wagon is stronger in almost every useful way. It shields, has decently high attack, moves faster, is harder to kill, etc.

Are you sure you were playing against the extreme AI? The extreme AI doesn’t usually lose like that. Maybe the all explored settings have something to do with it? Also, don’t pick Franks for the AI, if you want a fair fight, pick Vietnamese. The AI doesn’t know how to scout rush, or at least it didn’t, it kind of does now, and likes to play archers, as well as using battle elephants. SOTL made a video on it, and the AIs best civ to play is Vietnamese statistically.

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Ai can sometimes act like potato gainst special builds and units.

Others it sometimes acts perfectly against.

Anyways, quite uncommon to see Ai not making any military, but maybe occasionally it decides to not doing that? Don’t think this game can be transferred to others.

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Yes, if it was tested 5 or 10 times with normal settings, see how many the AI loses this badly. I think it was probably just a fluke. Also, doesn’t really change the fact that organ guns, and indeed Portuguese in general are pretty bad on maps like Arabia, does it?

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The AI probably loses to Organ guns because the AI makes all sorts of units. If it made nothing but light cav and mangonels as a response, it’d probably just win. The AI is very reactive, and produces counter units only after a while. And in the case of some units, it just doesn’t know what to make.

In the video it did worse than that. It made nothing. I did admittedly skip most of the video, but even still. Playing straight organ guns would never work against a human, at the very least.

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Why should we care about your tests in AI. This isnt a compstomp discussion. You try to double castle organ gun all in someone in Arabia and you’ll lose before you even get your 2nd castle up especially if they opened with scouts or archers. Even men at arms with the same resources will chew up organ guns.

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Exactly, also it isn’t often that the extreme AI will even act the way it did in the video. Even on arena, double castle organ gun probably won’t work.

Just for everyone that hasnt watched the Video:
The ai is Just passive and doesnt create any Military. I cant Imagine that being a Genuine extreme AI, it has to have been some Sort of Bug. It hasnt even build a stable, which even the worst Franks Player would do, create a few Knights/LCav and crush your Mono comp Organ gun Army.
That Video isnt representative of anything.
If the ai doesnt do anything you can crush it with any unit.

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Even militia would work, an argument could then be made: Militia are the only unit anyone needs, because I could beat the AI just using them. We should buff the militia! The video is meaningless.

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