Instead of losing 1 range. My changes: 10 less HP, plus 1 attack, 10 less wood cost. Maybe not plus 1 damage. Just ten less wood cost and 10 less hp.
Still keep 7 range, but are just weaker with 10 less hp. Elite unchanged, other than the cost 10 less wood cost.
That’s still 5 more HP than a castle age crossbowman. Without the plus 1 damage, they have a high chance of losing against a crossbowman in a 1v1 fight due to poor accuracy.
1v1. They narrowly beat a crossbowman.
Without the plus 1 damage even more narrowly. Sometimes do better, it’s their accuracy.
In mass fight the crossbowmen didn’t do much vs organs with plus 1 damage. Lost one organ gun.
Lost 2 organs without plus 1 damage.
2 Likes
The unit doesn’t even need a nerf. The Castle Age version is fine.
5 Likes
The unit is very strong in castle age Arena. The only unit that can counter is either orangers or knights. They demolish infantry and archers, and skirmishers.
Honestly I do not think that they are that good even on Arena. With a decent level of micro, 2 Mangonneau are enough to push back 8 - 10 organ guns.
And in team game, if the ennemy pocket is pushing too then it’s the fault of your pocket if he doesn’t help.
4 Likes
Lol, your change is a huge buff. Hp reduction doesn’t matter much for a unit like organ gun. Its a unit that gets very powerful as it grows in numbers. Its also used along with monks. So if you make changes that help it kill light cav, mangonels faster that’s a huge buff. You’re also suggesting wood cost reduction which will make them more resource efficient. Scenario tests fail to take the game context into account. Instead of these scenario tests spectate higher elo games in closed maps or Nomad to see how the unit is used.
1 Like
Well, I guess they will be nearly useable in castle age with only 6 range. Apart from purely defensive purposes.
They will have the same range of a town center now.
Outranging tc is not mandatory to be useful. Some of the most broken units in the game like Mangudai, Conquistadors don’t outrange tc in castle age. Organ guns are wood gold units, so easier to produce, don’t need any upgrades to be effective, effective dps grows with numbers. Obviously it’s not an open land map unit by design but Portuguese don’t rely on organ gun on such maps.
Conquistadors do with upgrades. But they are more useful raiding than camping a TC.
Mamelukes are also a pain in the ass to counter but in late game only.
I think you meant Mangudai but that’s later in imp. My point is even units with 5 or 6 range can get a lot of value even though they don’t outrange tc. The units with range and mobility also get converted without redemption and take bonus damage from skirms. Some also need attack and range upgrades to be effective. Obviously organ guns aren’t better than units like Conqs or Mangudai overall but given the Portuguese tech tree castle drop into organ guns play is quite powerful. 1 range is going to make them harder to use but they wouldn’t become useless.
Almost useless. They were weak vs mangonneau but now they will totally melt. With their 50 hp they die even from the side of the mango shoot. Like archers.
2 Likes
Yea I honestly have no idea why they are screwing around with this.
3 Likes
Lol no they won’t. Unless you have a hill or the units get clamped onto 1 tile, one mangonel hit doesn’t even kill more than a couple of full health crossbows. If you did lose that way in a real game, either your organ guns were heavily injured or opponent must have had an hill advantage. And going by this logic every unit in the game is useless regardless of its stats because it has a counter. In many situations skirms, scorps and mangonels melt archer units, halbs melt cavalry, hand canoneers melt infantry and so on. Still those units get used in real games.
Imo you’re probably using organ guns in Arabia around 30-35 mins and its not working out. And that’s completely normal since the unit isn’t meant for such a gameplay. Just go to youtube, you’ll find a ton of games both tournaments and ladder where high level players destroy their opponents with organ guns in fc-castle drop maps. If they are as weak as you claim them to be, no one would make them at the top level.
You’re free to say whatever you want, but the only thing that truly matters is that this unit doesn’t need a nerf.
1 Like
Because they have speed. The only other wood costing, slow and ranged UU is Hussite Wagon. And they have 3X the HP of OG.
You are the one asked to spectate High elo games. And both TheViper and Hera said this nerf would make them useless.
2 Likes
Yes but they also need many upgrades, organ guns need 0 upgrades. Hussites cost a lot more. Anyways units like Conqs, Mangudai are quite broken in some situations and need some adjustments to make sure they’re not situationally overpowered.
I was talking about the current and previous few patch games, especially from tournaments. Point was to show the unit isn’t weak by any means and that a weak unit won’t be prioritized by many players in competitive settings. Its not going to drop from a high priority unit to being useless with that change. Will be very surprised if that’s the case.
Anyways take what most pros tell in the spur of the moment with a grain of salt. Most of the times during a patch they make extreme comments like that to stay with the hype but what they do after patch release is very different from what they say.
Like Viper said Dravidians were a great civ 2+ years ago. After that they received 10 buffs and they’re still mediocre. Hera said monks are almost useless when the minimum conversion time was increased to 5 seconds and devotion was introduced even though the probability of conversion per interval was increased. After calling it useless, he makes monks every single tournament. And not just a few, like a crazy number of them. So it doesn’t mean when they give their opinion about some upcoming change its 100% accurate all the time.
I can agree that nerfing organ guns before nerfing more broken units could have been avoided. Like Conqs can receive 1 more nerf to their dps or speed. A few other overpowered uu like Mangudai should be nerfed too.
