Just wait until the day Microsoft realises that ‘Slav’ and ‘Slave’ are just similar-sounding words in many languages, and it’s no coincidence, and they’ll have a panic attack
7 Likes
I was gonna say, the thing about the Turks you mentioned here already happened. But with the Tatars instead of the Ottomans.
Yes, you reminded me, thank you.
“Minya” or “Mjinjaa” is also a very good option. In Chinese, it is written as “弥药” and is the self-appellation of the Tangut people. Therefore, whether it’s “Dangxiang” or “Minya,” both are excellent options, far superior to “Tangut.” Not to mention that “Tangut” became associated with the Tibetan region after the Qing Dynasty, becoming a sensitive issue for Microsoft.
At the same time, please don’t worry about the Chinese pronunciation. I know that “Tangut” is more commonly used in the West, but in games, the Raider of the “鲜卑人” is also translated as “Xianbei Raider” using Mandarin Pinyin. (As a side note, the game clearly confuses the Wei state established by Cao Cao in the 3rd century with the Wei state established by the Xianbei people in the 4th-6th centuries. Besides “Xianbei Raider,” the world wonder of the Wei state is also a building from the Xianbei Wei period.)
Whether it’s the Tangut people or the Xianbei people, they have already been assimilated into ethnic groups within modern China, such as the Han Chinese. Li Zicheng, a peasant leader who occupied northwestern China in the 17th century, is said to be a descendant of the Tangut people, but his thoughts and actions were no different from those of the Han Chinese. All descendants of Sinicized Tangut people would undoubtedly accept the Chinese appellation “Dangxiang,” and if we follow the historical context, we can also use the Tangut people’s term “Minya” from that era.
I believe the key to overcoming “Orientalism” is to adopt the vocabulary commonly used by Easterners themselves. In the past, China, in order to accelerate its integration with the West, also adopted the practice of fixing Chinese terms to those commonly used in the West (especially in the English-speaking world), for example, using “China” instead of “Zhongguo,” and “Dragon” instead of “Loong.” However, the differences in Eastern and Western history and culture have led to many cognitive discrepancies.
For instance, in the eyes of Westerners, “China” might be closely associated with the history and culture of the Han Chinese in China. But in Chinese, the connotation of “Zhongguo” （“中国”）itself is expanding. It originally referred only to the capital city of the dynasty in the Yellow River basin, Luoyang, then expanded to the entire Yellow River basin, and then to the Yangtze River basin… Until now, the “Zhongguo” or “Zhonghua” nation can broadly refer to the 56 ethnic groups officially recognized within contemporary China. But this clearly conflicts with the Western perception of the traditional “China” known for silk and porcelain. I personally admire the approach of the Japanese and Koreans. They translate their cuisine into terms like teriyaki, hibachi, sushi, kimchi, and bibimbap, which have been integrated into Western culture and accepted by the Western world. However, Chinese restaurant owners abroad still translate Chinese cuisine as: Chinese crepe, Beijing Fried Sauce Noodles, etc. I believe this needs to change.
Please forgive me for expanding on some content. I believe that some issues in your statement can significantly highlight the differences between Chinese and Western thought and culture, so I wanted to elaborate on my thoughts regarding these issues，thanks for your reply.
4 Likes
Oh, I think I understand what you mean. But I suddenly realized that the example I gave actually has a difference in terminology between East and West.
As is well known, modern Turks have constructed an ethnic lineage from the Mongolian Plateau to Central Asia, Iran, and then to the Anatolian Peninsula, but China denies this connection.
For the “Turkic Khaganate” on the Mongolian Plateau, China uses the historical Chinese name, “突厥” (Tūjué), while for the ethnic groups in Central Asia, it uses terms like the ethnic group of “突厥” (Tūjué) system or the language groups of “突厥” (Tūjué) . For the Ottoman Empire on the Anatolian Peninsula and the republic that succeeded it, an ethnic group that combines Anatolian local traditions and nomadic traditions, we use the modern Chinese phonetic transliteration of the word “Turkey,” “土耳其” (Tǔ’ěrqí), to refer to them. Although you may not understand Chinese, I believe you can also see that by using different Chinese characters, we emphasize their differences. The “Turk” in my post refers to “土耳其” (Tǔ’ěrqí), and it is unrelated to the ethnic groups in Central Asia and on the Mongolian Plateau. But I clearly forgot that in English, “Turk” can refer to a very large ethnic group.
The word “Tatars” is also interesting. This word originally referred to a tribe (or clan) among the Mongols, transliterated into Chinese as “塔塔儿” (Tǎtǎ’ér). Perhaps because this tribe was once powerful, it was used by the Chinese at the time to refer to the entire Mongol nation. Possibly due to different translators, it was re-transliterated into Chinese as “鞑靼” (Dádá), and later used to refer to the Mongol forces that occupied the Mongolian Plateau after the fall of the Yuan Dynasty. Interestingly, this word was also used by the Russians to refer to the Mongolized steppe peoples within their borders, such as the Volga Tatars, Crimean Tatars, Siberian Tatars, etc. Modern Chinese translators may not be aware of the different scopes of this word in the two countries and thus directly use the old term “鞑靼” (Dádá) as a translation. This has also caused a lot of cognitive confusion in China. In games, I think linking “Tatars” to the historical Golden Horde is not a problem, but I have some doubts about whether they can be equated with Central Asian ethnic groups. This is because Central Asia, as a corridor, has a very complex ethnic origin.
Let me share another interesting thing with you. The Central Asian country Turkmenistan is transliterated into Chinese as “土库曼斯坦” (Tǔkùmàn Sītǎn), and “Turkmen” is “土库曼” (Tǔkùmàn) in Chinese. This word is different from both “突厥” (Tūjué) and “土耳其” (Tǔ’ěrqí), but it actually originates from an ancient Chinese term “突厥蛮” (Tūjué Mán). However, the character “蛮” (Mán) used in it actually means “barbarian,” which was a derogatory translation in ancient China. But modern China, to show respect for Turkmenistan, re-translated it as “土库曼” (Tǔkùmàn). Thus, the Turkic Khaganate, Turkmenistan, and the Republic of Turkey, three countries that are extremely similar in English, have different names in Chinese.
4 Likes
AHH I see, that makes a lot more sense. I actually have an online friend who is Singaporean Chinese and he used to work as an intern translator for Hoyoverse. He has some interesting insights about the Chinese language, so learned a bit of that from him. I get what you mean by different same terms having completely different phonetics in another language lol.
Yes, we Chinese have always attached great importance to “names” since ancient times.
The characters for “name” and “nominally” both use the Chinese character “名” (míng), representing a kind of metaphysics closely related to reality. Therefore, a philosophy exploring the dialectical relationship between “nominally” and “actually” also developed, written in Chinese as “名学” (míngxué).
It contains many interesting topics. For example, a philosopher once proposed the idea that “a white horse is not a horse,” which can be considered an interesting aspect of Chinese culture, haha.
3 Likes
Trying to work on my ideal set of DLCs for AOE2, and how wussy the devs (realistically the lawyers) are about touching non-Han ethnic groups in China makes it really hard. Makes it hard to even formulate where to add a proper Sinitic/Mainland E. Asian architecture set, because with how scared they are to touch anything even vaguely adjacent to Tibet, it seems to cut out any options for any more civs in the modern China region, which leaves Southeast Asia and maybe one more Turkic civ in Central Asia (outside of India and the Middle East I mean), none of which really fit adding a Sinitic architecture set…really sad state of affairs I gotta say.
1 Like
The slave-capturing raids of neighbouring Christian kings and dukes to pagan Slavic lands and the amount of this trade are not the history parts of which the politically correct Europe wants to be shamed of. As well as slaughter and ethnocide of pagan southern baltic Slavs and Prussians by german feudals and crusaders who “spread the Word of Christ with sword”.
2 Likes
Btw, Republic of Turkiye is more correct, as far as I know.
The word “Tatars” was used by Russian imperial bureaucracy to all subjugated turkic-speaking ethnities, including Azerbaijanis (named Caucasian Tatars), Bashkirs (named Ufa Tatars), Karachays and Balkars (n. Mountain Tatars), Shor(ian)s (n. Kuznetsk Tatars), Khakasians (n. Abakan Tatars or Minusinsk Tatars) and so on. Notably, the related Kazakh “name” as Kaisak Tatars was later changed to Kaisak Kyrgyzs.
1 Like
There’s nothing wrong with exonyms. The very reason the bird and the country have the same name is because Europeans thought that turkey the bird comes from Turkey the country. If the country changes name to Turkiye, the bird should change its name too, and then the country needs to pick yet another name in order not to be mistaken with the bird…
1 Like
And the bird didn’t come from Turkiye to begin with.
Your statement could be checked by going to Turkey (bird) - Wikipedia and comparing the article names in other european languages.
Well, ok, they didn’t think turkeys arrived from Turkey but they did name the bird after the country.
Interesting, they was fr some plans to add the Tanguts huh. we kinda know this since longtime but having some bits of infos is interesting.
Tanguts, Khitans, Jurchens would have been the PERFECT EA DLC.
11 Likes
Tibetans needed to be in there!
2 Likes
i’m all in with that argument
Says the guy who derails every topic into “merge civs” slop
2 Likes
Don’t start arguing with him again, it’s not worth it and the thread will only get cluttered.
Man, I remember the hype at that time. It was going to be the best DLC in the game, then I saw the thumbnail on Ornlu’s video. 
5 Likes