Overall balance changes ideas

I will post here balance changes that i feel personally need to be revised. First my balance ideas are from a military point of view mainly, i am not so good with economic numbers, i leave that to specialists. I will also try to argument why those changes should be made. Also it doesn’t have to be exactly my way but maybe some ideas will come up out of them to the devs. Also my suggestions will be both globally as well individually civs based. And i don’t play at the moment because my job is to much time costly but i do watch streamers A LOT and i mean A LOT (mainly T90Official, MembTV, TheViper and Hera) and i get frustrated with a lot of things, because i see the same things to some civs all the time and it is getting boring and annoying, so yes this will be from a viewer point of view frustrations, please no hate, but i want to see some civs that are not played or played the same way all the time.
P.S. Civ = civilisations

Overall global balance changes suggestions:
*reduce gold cost of Hand Cannoneers from 50 to 40; Almost never seen and also will help specific civs that are under performing right now to give them a boost;P.S. you will see a lot of suggestions this unit to be removed or not from some civ, this is based on and if their gold cost is reduced.
*Steppe Lancers/Elite Steppe Lancers HP increased from 60 to 70 respective 80 to 100. There are a few civs that have bonuses towards this unit and when it got nerfed it also nerfed those civs directly
All elephants civs should get Heresy, in return elephants units should be converted slightly faster like 10-15% by default, this way we will see elephants more often and in return they also can be killed faster using monks! High risk <–> high reward scenario confirmed.
Heresy gold cost reduced by default to around 600-800 gold;

Scorpions +1 range in imperial age; Why? Well i feel like this is a range vs damage in Britons vs Chinese match ups, also Chinese get siege rams while britons don’t. And on top of that all you see is arbalests, trebs and longbows. Khmer bonus get changed.

New Hand Cannoneers removed or not? -if their gold cost is reduced, makes camel archers unplayable in most scenarios;, but also they need to have a response against infantry if stone is getting a problem in mining it
Champions removed; if hand cannoneers are to be kept.

I personally believe this civ is lacking personality. So my suggestions are specific towards that.
Get champion;
Cavalier unit removed; I know there will be some backlash towards this suggestion, but come on, all players go for LC units all the time it is getting boring and predictable. Also not to make their early Imp broken with champions already research, maybe make the tech researchable or even better, at half price. And top of that players have options to either go all in in castle with knights or go for fast imperial.

New Hand Cannoneers
Gold cost 25% refunded for every knight unit lost; I believe their economic bonuses lack a little.
Champions removed;

One of the civs i feel frustrated with a specific situation that all pro players tend to do.
Cavalier unit removed; Why this suggestion, when pro players need a strong front line unit, 99% of the time they go for cavaliers instead of battle elephants and me as a viewer i hate that, especially when it says it is an elephant and monk civ. I am sure viewers want to see elephants more often, not only knight line units. Also based on my global suggestion for elephants civs this bonus should come into play nicely for the Burmese
Heresy available;

Probably one of the most hyped civs people want to see and yet they do have an identity but they do lack death ball. Teutons are kinda the same style but they do have death ball composition. Apart from that as we all saw in the match ACCM vs Daniel the lack of Byzantines speciality. They are good at many things but lack speciality and their defensive bonuses most of the time lack impact. For some reason i’ve always seen and liked this civ to be a defensive trash/gunpowder type, since i was a teenager and now i am 31
Gunpowder units get 5-10% bonus movement speed; (Hand Cannoneers, Bombard Cannon, Cannon Galleons). As we all can see most of Mediterranean civs are gunpowder type, so why not Byzantines as well. Plus this is one of the civ that will benefit from Hand Cannoneers gold reduction. Also you will have another water civ with bonuses to their Fire Ships and Cannon Galleons. I hate to see only vikings, Italians and Portuguese
Give 5% to the skirmishers, 10% to spearmen line, 15% to their LC and 12% to Camels, HP bonus. You can give it gradually based on ages, like 5% in feudal for skirmishers, 10% to spearmen line in castle and 15% to their LC and 12% to Camels in Imperial.
Cavalier/Paladin removed and maybe Champions too? They do get Hand Cannoneers now and also based on my next change suggestion they should use Cataphracts too.
Reduce gold cost to Cataphracts from 75 to 65-70. It is one of the most less seen units in the game and that from a viewer point of view it sucks to say the least.
Get Bombard Towers; If they get changed into a gunpowder civ might as well give them this and should balance the remove of cavaliers/paladins/champions.

Another civ that is lacking personality from my point of view. With the increase of HP to the Steppe Lancers and their bonus to this unit you should make this civ steppe lancers oriented. Also Steppe Lancers are one of the units that you see very rarely or not at all
+ New Passive bonus: reduce food and gold cost to Steppe Lancers by 10%-12%; to result into a cost around 60F 40G
Remove Paladin/cavalry units? Their new cost reduction with high armour and HP steppe lancer should balance the lack of paladins/cavaliers.

Shotel Warriors should get +1 range or melee armour and Elite Shotel Warrior the other melee or range armour by default (in a total +1/+1); I have only seen 1-2 times this unit in the last year in stream games. It is a dead unit, so make it playable.
Cavalier removed. This is to balance the shotel bonuses and to force people to come up with strategies around shotel warriors.

Throwing Axemen increase melee armour by default from +1 to +2 Another not so used unit
Hand Cannoneers removed; to counter balance throwing axemen and to make a decent balanced match vs Burgundians, also throwing axemen come into play. Burgundians should counter Franks with hand cannoneers their throwing axemen, while franks counters Burgundians with paladins.
Champions removed;

Hand Cannoneers removed or not? They have Huskarls to deal with trash and range units, halberdiers with cavalry and champions as a anti infantry, but then again a champion are not quite an infantry speciality, hand cannoneers combo won’t hurt, but might be to powerful, also the new Malay idea you will read, they might need hand cannoneers vs malay needs to be tested!
Bombard Cannon or Trebuchet removed. If Hand Cannoneers are to be kept, something needs to be removed from their offensive power spike.

Slingers +1 damage from 4 to 5 or +1 range armour by default; We need to see them used more often.
Kamayuk get +5% movement speed; To many times eagle warriors are used even against cavalry civs.
Andean Sling also removes Scorpions minimum range.

Elephant Archers +1 range by default from 4 to 5 also fires 8%-12% faster. This is a meme unit, even TheViper has problems in finding a use for it
Heresy available or not at the monastery?. Remember global change to elephants. this might be to powerful for a range elephant civilisation, need tested!
New Hand Cannoneers;
Champions removed;
Arson removed;
Remove stone mine shafting. To delay the new elephant archers death ball

With the new Byzantines; also Portuguese and even Vikings having options for water map invasions, i feel like Italians should be used more often for water map invasions or/and also for hybrid or even land maps. They will get boost with the new Hand Cannoneers gold reduction for hybrid and even land matches also their Condottiero will be used more often because hand cannoneers will be viable. Condottiero also should get a bonus defence vs gunpowder units apart from attack bonus. To balance matches vs gunpowder units, might be to powerful. (mini huskarls vs gunpowder units) Need to be tested!
Condottiero receive bonus armour vs gunpowder units;
New Hand Cannoneers;

New Hand Cannoneers Might make combo with champions or samurai to powerful.
Remove arbalest? To counter balance if hand cannoneers are not removed, also to many civs with arbalest unit;

Remove knight line. *Again same situation as Burmese with people going for cavaliers not elephants.
Get heresy; global change to elephants.
Remove Hand Cannoneers. It is a must be, to powerful and might cancel the use of scorpions or even might have deadly combos with ballista elephants or scorpions.
Scorpions bonus get changed from +1 range to 10%-15% shooting faster or +1/+2 armour.

New Hand Cannoneers;
Bombard Cannons cost food instead of wood. A civ that is way to heavy wood cost oriented.
Military units bonus applies to siege units as well.

Lithuanians always struggle against heavy infantry civilisations, also they are cavalry civ so their infantry should be weak.
Champions removed;
Hand Cannoneers removed or not
Get Siege Onager;
Bombard Cannons removed or not.
Bombard Cannons vs Siege Onager need to tested for balancing the Lithuanians vs infantry civs match up, especially vs Malay!

Under performing a lot also don’t stand up to their swarming idea.
Forced Levy also gives 10% movement speed to their militia line and maybe 5% to their battle elephants; (on top of squires and husbandry).
Thalassocracy also creates karambit warriors at the town center (production time is not affected by any technologies or bonuses), 6s default time production. To speed up the karambit warrior death ball production.
Heresy get removed; To slow down their swarming power by converting their battle elephants. Also with the new Hand Cannoneers been usable a lot of civs can stand up to their swarming power

Another civ that is good at multiple things but lack speciality. Also lack personal identity.
Farimba now give +3 attack to cavalry and +1 or +2 to Gbeto. First Gbetos should win most of the time vs throwing axemen, second Malians need to have a response to Malay swarming power or any other infantry civ.
Hand Cannoneers available. In case they don’t get access in matches to stone for castles they need to have a response against infantry civs with hand cannoneers,
also arbalests against malay won’t cut it.

Arbalests removed? Making room for hand Cannoneers plays.

To give each top archer civs unique siege powers. Britons get scorpions with +1 range and warwolf trebuchets, Chinese get scorpions with +4 damage and Siege Ram, Khmer get Heavy Scorpions with either faster fire rate or +1 armour and Siege Onager. Mayans should also have their unique siege power apart from their siege ram.
El Dorado gives also 10 HP to Scorpions.

Another civ with bonuses towards Steppe Lancers. With global change to Steppe Lancers HP mongols’ Steppe Lancers become viable as long as they don’t have another power mounted unit, but that can be fixed.
Cavalier removed.
Arbalest removed. Players should work around CA with steppe lancers/LC and Siege Rams, apart from mangudai-siege onager plays.They are to much one sided civ and if you counter their stone resourses it is game over for them.

Another civ that is good at many things but it is hard to reach the death ball.
Hand Cannoneers removed or not;
Heavy Scorpions removed;
Siege ram removed; All two (maybe three) removed units is to make space for war elephants.
Get Siege Onager;
Get Heresy. Again, another elephant civ that will be affected by global change to elephant converts.
Receive Bracers; To make their Kamandaran tech usable again, buy time and save gold and food to reach elite war elephants.
Halberdiers removed. To make them a cavalry focus power a little.
Heavy Cavalry Archers or Parisian Tactics removed; Don’t need to have them again heavy cavalry archer civ oriented

New Hand Cannoneers;
Siege Engineers affects Organ Guns They do need something to make them viable on land maps, hybrid maps or water maps landing.

Hand Cannoneers removed or not?

Apart from the fact that they are lacking diversity, also they lack economic bonuses. And it is all about their Serjeants. The idea is to still keep the Serjeant meme civ oriented but also offer some diversity.The idea is to combo the Serjeants in different scenarios with other units. Against cavalry you combo Serjeants with halberdiers, against infantry you combo with scorpions and champions, against archers with siege ram and skirmishers
Militia line get +2 damage against Archers. Making Serjents a gold front line unit to tank damage in all scenarios, while other special units deal the damage.
Gold cost reduction to all their Siege units and siege technologies.

Another civ that will benefit from new Hand Cannoneers, but we can make them viable on water.
Demolition ships area of damage is increased by 25%-33%.
Reduce gold cost to Conquistadors from 70 to 60-65;
Monks removed;
Missionaries can pick up relics. Missionaries while carring relics, their movement speed is equal to Monks with Fervor researched.
Fervor removed;

Another Steppe Lancers civ so need to be oriented towards that, than cavaliers.
Cavaliers removed;
Keshik generates 1 or 2 gold for each hit against another land units, 2 or 3 gold per hit against water and siege units. The unit does need to have a good weight in the civ’s composition.
New Hand Cannoneers;

Hand Cannoneers removed or not; They have a lot of anti infantry units.

One of the most if no the most under performing civilisation. So let’s see what we can do. And maybe make it water civ viable.
New Hand Cannoneers;
Janissaries get +6-10 damage against mounted units. Now they have hand cannoneers vs infantry and janissaries vs cavalry
Demolition Ships x2 damage against all water units. Kills transport ships in 1 hit; Sicilians transport ships should get countered by something.

Another elephant civilisation, not so much oriented but still elephants should be chosen over cavaliers.
Cavaliers removed;
Petards can be garrisoned inside siege towers;
Chatras also gives +1 Melee armour/1 pierce armour to petards. Is the only unit that no bonuses are given. Also the only archer civ that has no special siege power.
Trebuchets removed. Siege towers with petards can shots castle easily, also forcing players to wall their castle in front and sides, keeping only the backside unwalled, forcing players to think twice about where to place castles, also petards should be ungarrisoned in front of the wall if the castle is walled.

As you can see my idea of bonuses is to make all dead units more viable as well to make all civs to have a unique identity and on top of that to make more water civs.

1 Like

With due all respect, none of your suggestions make any sense.


All of them are very bad ideas and unnecessary, expect Elephant Archer buff.


because britons totally need a buff.

um why would camel archers be unplayable? Hand Cannons and Camel archers fill two different roles.

yes lets take cavalier away from a cavalry civ.

the civ has terrible ranged options, removing hand cannons would make this even worse.

yes because burmese totally needs to be nerfed.

i’m noticing a trend - you like to remove cavalry from civs.

ahh yes, lets nerf pretty much the only late game option that Cumans have in team games. makes 100% sense.

yes removing cavaliers from a civ that lacks bloodlines and plate barding armor will totally offset a buff to shotels on a civ that really doesn’t need buffs.

the fact that you think Throwing Axeman are a dead unit says a lot.

Goths absolutely need hand cannons to fight other infantry cost effectively. and Goths aren’t really a civ that needs to be nerfed, they aren’t that good.

you want ot know why you don’t see slingers much? only incas get them and Incas games tend to end fast because they pretty much exclusively trush.

giving them 1 range isn’t going to suddenly turn EA into a unit people deathball.

condos already get a defense bonus against gunpowder.

so because were buffing a situational unit were going to remove the main option japanese have for fighting every other composition in the game? makes zero sense.

so your answer to lithuanians being bad agaisnt heavy infantry civs is to remove two of the best options against heavy infantry, and give them an expensive as heck siege onager on a civ that doesn’t even get siege engineers in exchange for taking away BBC? yeah.

yes because faster moving Battle Elephants has totally not proven to be problematic to balance.
Heresy isn’t atech that is used all that much to begin with.

Gbetos already win against axeman with micro. as for a response to swarming infantry, they literally have arbs for that, or your buffed hand cannons which they already HAVE. so i don’t know why you think you’re adding them to the civ.

Mayans absolutely don’t need buffs. and El Dorado certainly doesn’t.

why must a civ be required to use what you want it to use? the Cavalier is useful in certain situations and the Steppe Lancer others.

wow lets nerf Persians into the ground.

yeah Saracens totally need another nerf. especially when you’re buffing civs like britons and mayans.

yes a civ that can go archers, knights, or infantry is totally lacking diversity. furthermore giving the militia line extra damage vs archers isn’t going to do anything seeing as they have trouble even getting to them.

yeah no, Monks absolutely don’t need to be removed.

again why do you think the Steppe Lancer and the Cavalier are supposed to fill a similar role? the Steppe Lancer benefits from civ bonuses for all 3 civs that get it that benefit the SCOUT LINE which means the Steppe Lancer fills the same role as the SCOUT LINE. therefore if anything the scout line should be neutered on those civs.

do they? they have terrible archery range, and yeah siege exists but its expensive.

and what do they have against Cavalry when they don’t have castles?

yes because Vietnamese are going for Cavalier so often.

seriously all these changes would throw the game into chaos.


If you would have read, my balances are from military point of view, of course counter balances can be made with economic ones. And i did say that not all of them might be applicable but certainly some can. Also I did said that Hand Cannoneers are under “?” mark if are to be kept or not for some civs.

i know they are from a military point of view - the point stands that your changes would utterly destroy the balance of the game.

you’re actively buffing both Britons and Mayans, two top tier civs as is, and you’re literally removing Cavalier from what is supposed to be a Cavalry civilization.

other times your nerfs don’t offset the buffs - Ethiopians go for Cavalier once in a blue moon or even worse, so removing that in exchange for buffing Shotels is not “compensation”. you’re making huge sweeping changes that don’t need to be made to the game.

Balance is largely in a great spot with just a few changes needed to a few civilizations (Italians on land, Spanish, and a few others tops).

your justification elsewhere doesn’t make sense. how does a HC buff make Camel Archers unplayable?
not to mention you saying Teutons have plenty of anti infantry options.


Wow I’m sorry but this is TRASH. Like randomly removing cavalier or champs from most civs makes no sense. Also you’re afraid some civs would become OP with buffed HC but you don’t see any problem with say, Burmese getting heresy for 300 gold?

Also you say you don’t like unit repetition and watch a lot of matches. Then why are you complaining about Burmese cavalier rather than Arambai. How did you miss the fact Byzantine already have BBT. And so on.

I’m sorry but there is absolutely nothing that anyone could possibly wish for in this list.


I just like some extra hp un SL and missionaties picking relics

in all honesty i got this far, and then i was like, “this guy doesnt play the game, or doesnt know wtf is going on with balance so it will only be a waste reading further”

like wow dude… " i hate seeing this so it should be nerfed"

nevermind burma is screwed without cavaliers… if anything cavalry as the meta needs to be nerfed, dont take away one of the few units these guys can use vs archer civs…

big lel “confirmed” ?! wtf? no . so i need to research an incredibly expensive tech, and then still have my eles converted faster, but wait! they die instead of being converted, so im still losing them even faster to monks… wow great idea /s

are possibly the only 2 i can agree with, but thats because tons of other people have recommended them… but even then im reluctant… do you do math bro?

how strong would a mongol SL be?


you certainly have a lot of patience! going through this entire post… :+1: :+1:

oh wait guys! he said this… so obviously that means we can change the entire game to accommodate his changes… lets do it! for reasons /s


well at 100 base HP the ESL goes to 130 because the bonus and 150 health with Bloodlines.
more then even Frankish Cavaliers…


noooo waiiittt delete your comment! i wanted him to work it out… he obviously hadnt… (i knew what ithe total was the moment i saw his idea)


Just remove the Elite Steppe then, no one would make that anyways over Mangudai.

1 Like

Steppe Paladins!
Not only replace Knights, but outright overpower them.

Would they? SL has lower attack, lower rof, lower armor and if I’m not mistaken, mongoles don’t get the last cavalry armor update.

They are cheaper but i’m curious how would they trade against regular cavaliers and paladins

Considering a FU cavalier vs a mongol 150hp ELS

Cavalier has 16 dmg, ROF 1.8 vs 2 armor of ELS= 14dmg/1.8 = 7.8dmg rate agains ELS

ELS has 15 dmg, ROF 2.3 vs 5 armor of cavalier = 10dmg/2.3= 4.4 dmg rate against Cavalier

I don’t know how the +1 range or the cheaper cost can affect a battle, but cavalier still would have close to 2x the dmg rate

150 HP is better than Cavalier resistance while also costing much less gold.

yes and no. they have less armor. but still, the SL has the speed and range advantage.

1 Like

I did say at first that it doesn’t have to be exactly my way, but they do need a buff and all Steppe Lancers civs should use as a “paladin” front line unit, that is my idea, the numbers can be tweaked to make them a little weaker 1v1 or 2v1 but win in higher numbers, that is why i removed cavaliers/paladins from those civs, after all only 4 civs if i am not mistaken have this unit, so let’s make it useable for those civ as a must be front unit like paladins for other civs

It does not work, like the Battle Elephant debacle showed.
You just cannot replace the Knight, unless you make the SL either just a “skin” for the Knight, or stronger than the Knight.

One option makes no sense (why have another unit taht is jjust a copy of an existing unit?) and the other would be OP.

BE civs still ue Knights, SL civs would cry to get the Knights back, unles you made the SL just a straight out better version of the Knight, which would be a nightmare to balance and would soon be nerfed even harder than it is now.

Here is my take: they should have never made the Steppe Lancer to begin with, it is not Trash like the Scout, and cannort replace Knight just like BEs could not.

If you would have read everything you would see a few things. First my idea is to make elephants civs to USE elephants as front line, just like my suggestions for Steppe Lancers civs to use this unit as a front line unit, instead of cavaliers/paladins. Second, the reason why people don;t use elephants is that they are countered by monks and are high costly and on top of that it is getting coverted. Third, if you read again you will see that i did said to reduce heresy to 600-800 or even less maybe 500-700 to be researchable by all elephants civs easier. This way you as an elephants civ, you get to play elephants, you are still countered by monks, but utleast you don’t get your elephants converted by enemy player and on top of that all elephants civs get LC or another fast unit to kill monks. So yeah, having 10%-15% elephants to be converted faster that is a small downside otherwise would be to broken.