People civ picking Gurjaras on ladder ruins the fun

this one maybe ? https://agestats.net/

Or the one that has been out of maintenance for a while already ? https://aoestats.io/

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Perhaps AOE2 Stats Dashboard ?

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Yes, this one. Thank you.

Never saw this before. Thank you too.

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that was sarcastic. I know that the unit is crazy good once they hit 40+ numbers.

guess you never read my comment fully.

They do and its much more prominent than what you mention as Franks’ weakness. The late game trash units. Gurjaras lack pikes, while Franks lack hussar but have halbs, and both have skirms that miss the important +4 armor upgrade.

Except its not. Gurjara player has to invest 250 resources on bloodlines, 400 resources on farm upgrades, more stone on castle. Till around 25-30th min, the strength of eco bonuses from Franks is more than that of Gurjaras.
And Camels aren’t an aggressive unit. So you can’t raid with them. Shrivamshas are good for raid but food intensive and you can’t push with them unless opponent is doing ONLY ranged units. Knights can both raid in low numbers and be used as main army for pushing. And the Frank knights-castle drop play is quite powerful.

Franks, Gurjaras or any cavalry civ for that matter needs crossbows only when opponent already has too many pikes or monks and might push or drop a forward castle with that. And in that case its sufficient to get bodkin. The equivalence of what you said is true only against CA play and yes in that particular instance Gurjaras are better than Franks. Otherwise Franks in no way weaker. They’re an equally powerful civ.

Most of the Gurjara is Op feeling comes because of the current Arabia meta and maps similar to Arabia like Runestones or Serengeti where 65% of the games end in 35-55 mins. On most of the empire wars maps, more aggressive maps or maps based on mid control, Franks are a better civ.

Try to think why they are so easy or smooth to play. You get a lead in dark age with faster berries, the lead further gets strengthened in feudal age with stronger scouts and free horse collar. This makes you considerably faster to castle age and you get knights with extra line of sight and extra hp for free unlike other knight civs. Even if you can’t do much damage, you’ll still be ahead in eco because of free heavy plow.

And as far as the window that you’re talking about - the civ has very strong bonuses till mid-imperial age (like around 45-50 mins). Its only after that stage where gold runs out, their weaker skirmishers might be insufficient. 75-80% of games get over before that window fades. They had like 55+% win rates against 25 civs in the 4 patches before the DLC at 1700+

what…before the DLC, Franks had 2x pick rate compared to Cumans. Cumans are a bottom tier civ for RM open and were primarily seen more often than Franks ONLY in Resurgence where opponent drafted civs. Otherwise Franks were 3rd highest picked after Mayans and Mongols amongst pros in ranked and a top-5 drafted civ in almost all land tournaments both RM and EW.

It does, both pre-15 min and post 55 min games are weak. Those stages are usually less active on open passive maps like RM Arabia, Runestones. With the upcoming patch nerfing the Shrivamsha riders and Camels, I feel that the 25-50 min game phase where they grow very strong will also get moderated quite a bit. On maps like Atacama, or maps with gold in the center, Gurjaras aren’t OP.

Just out of curiosity, why is -2 damage for heavy camels, -1 damage for Camels and 5 secs longer recharge time on Shrivamsha riders, not considered as nerfs but just tweaks?

And then there is Arena, the most standard closed map where Gurjaras is still the top.

I see Turks, Bohemians, Poles, Burgundians, Hindustanis as top-5 averaged win rates. And I guess its very easy to balance out Arena in case they seem broken there. Like removing redemption or bombard canons will automatically pull them down quite a bit. Especially since they don’t have pikes or halbs as the game gets longer.

Removing bbc from turks and bohemians isn’t going to happen

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I find it interesting that a thread about how OP gurjaras are, becomes a thread trying to compare them to how strong franks are?

How does comparing them to a civ that MANY want nerfed, somehow justify anything?

Two wrongs don’t make a right

Literally the only reason more people don’t complain about Hindus is because gurj are even worse, people aren’t complaining as much (but still complaining) about franks, because of the former two.

All of these things can be resolved simultaneously

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Now check Naive win rate, Gurjaras at #3 with 57% win rate.

Nor Hindustanis, Burgundians. All 4 have gunpowder specific bonus.

I think 4th and as I said before because the civ has good mobility its probably better to have it as an open map civ and nerf its strengths for closed maps.