i just wanna know if there a reason why cuman second forum building time recieve HUGE nerf when persian can make a douche by building their forum age 1 as the speed of light ?
Should they nerf the time to build a Forum at Age I for avoid this kind of strategy also ? If not why make a difference of building time for the second TC of cuman and not for the persian
The second TC of the Cuman is slower to build not only to prevent TC rush but also to prevent them from gaining too much economic advantage. Also the difference between the Persian and Cuman douche is that with the first one you’re stuck in dark age for a while and you spend time with no TC at all, so the enemy can gain a technology advantage, while with the Cuman you already are in feudal and have a second TC that will be super-safe.
These two things are both strategies that players commit to early in the game, and that is where the similarity between them ends. There’s a big economic difference between a player who has 2 Town Centers (Forums) in Feudal Age and a player who has 0 Town Centers for some time in the Dark Age.
Cuman player will have 50 to 70 villagers by 20 minutes in-game if booming, even with the extended build time on the TC. A Persian douche player would be lucky to even be in Feudal Age with 20 villagers at 20 minutes. These things are not the same. All-in aggressive strategies like douche are high-risk, and when they don’t work, there is often no possible comeback.
If you are struggling to win against Persian douche, you can learn counter-strategies like:
- Building single-tile palisade walls around your Town Center to eliminate all spaces in range that the Persian could build his Town Center;
- Making military to attack the Persian’s wood collectors so that he can no longer repair his Town Center (he will have to take wood somewhere away from both of your Town Centers);
- Rebuilding your Town Center in a safer zone where the Persian player cannot follow you, but close to wood and stone or gold;
- Advancing to Feudal Age as soon as possible to get a military lead and prevent the Persian from advancing himself.
Most importantly, watch expert games where a player is defending this strategy and take careful note on what they choose to do (when do they repair? When and where do they choose to rebuild?).
Douche is not an unbeatable strategy that needs to be balanced, it’s actually quite a bad/meme strategy that even highly skilled players regularly fail with. This is because at any level, winning games is mostly about economy. The game doesn’t need to be rebalanced to favour people who won’t commit to learning counter-strategies!
The persian douche is quite good at keeping an opponent trapped in Feudal age. The Cuman boom is very good if you can keep the opponent in feudal age. Hence the potential for synergy, which the devs apparently didn’t want.
That said I’d love it if the cuman TC could be build slightly faster. The cuman boom feels extremely weak at my skill level.
Well if you buff the Cuman TC people at lower elo than you who will let the Cuman player gain even more of an advantage and lose, wich won’t make them happy, while people at levels where more people master this technique will find it too strong and won’t be happy either. So I wouldn’t feel too much like meddling into that.
although the game kind of does need to not be covered in cheese strats everywhere we look…
laming and twr rush say hi, in counterpoint to what you just said…
imo any consecutive TCs built in the dark age, should have a longer build time to eliminate the douche. yes its a very risky strat but at the same time is it enjoyable to play against? its one of those negative player experiences, just like twr rushes could be countered in the past, they still nerfed them because it annoyed so many people. not because it was uncounterable
There’s a lot of reasons they did it, so I don’t know what the main reason is, but what I assume the main reason to be is the efficiency. Right now, a early 2 tc boom is very comparable in the lategame whilst having a distinct window in the midgame where it is a clear economic advantage. Push the TC up sooner, and that separation becomes more polarizing. They pushed the timing back by increasing the build time to adjust that strength.
Not to mention, having a second TC up is having a second building devoted to the defense of resources, not just a serious economy boost.
cheese isn’t used very commonly in aoe2 to begin with. it’s actually one of the games with the least amount of cheese.
and how often do these honestly happen?
yeah because douching is so strong that it’s seen all the time…
1% of the time
100% of that 1% of the time involving Rubenstock.
The guy is a legend.
According to this thinking, almost every game at 2k+ level is just full of negative player experiences. Towers, laming, and even drush! If these things ruin your multiplayer experience, maybe you just don’t like to play the game?
My man… Missing my point. They nerfed twr rush, they nerfed laming… And that’s specifically why we don’t see them.
Oh yes it most definitely is.
But anyway “rape isn’t very common” means that rape is fine?
To take your logic to the extreme… Just because something isn’t seen often doesn’t mean it is fine
I specifically said douching doesn’t need to be nerfed because it’s not so strong. I said it needs to be nerfed because it’s not enjoyable the exact same reason twr rush and laming were nerfed ffs
They were nerfed
Oh genius on the wall what % of games is that? Less than 1%? 0.5%?
-The best thing you can do to counter the Perisan Douche is going fast feudal, and when i say “fast feudal” this mean (8:50, 9:15, 9:40), not higher that that and not lower, and if you are Mongols/Lithuanians, you can do it in less than that
-2nd step, move to archers/scouts to attack him in his base, if you just want to keep defend your TC and waist your time with repairing then actually you didn’t make anything good.
-build towers in your new locations after you losing your TC
*These steps are good too against Incas rush
But i agree with you that because they have 2X TC hp they should do something about it and a little longer time to build will be good
Go watch starcraft and then tell me how often we see cheese compared to them.
Apples and oranges. If cheese was as powerful as youre making it sound it would be pervasive at the pro level and is rarely seen there. Again go look how often cheese happens at the pro level of other rts games and then tell me cheese is common in aoe2
Mat is right. We don’t have a problem with “cheese” compared to any other competitive scene.
Also, man’s out here comparing Persian douche to r*pe lol ModCheck
Hey genius read my original comment, balancing the game for players who refuse to learn to play is literally never going to happen, so you might as well suck it up.
Douche is a fun strat. Stop being such a tryhard.
just make it so they have 2x TC hp starting in castle age and remain 1x in dark and feudal.
Personnaly everytime i’m against an persian player its 100% douch strategy, i never seen an persian doing other strategy than this against me, and everytime i loose, i have try everything ,big villager battle when it come but the forum is build sooo fast its never work,
try to put some building a little bit everywhere for block the area but its cost lot of wood and you dont have much this early in the game and you cant cover every area.
He just allways find a area where he can put his tc. i have trying to delete and build it on other way but,its just put him in big lead since he can collect food continue producing villager etc…when i’ m wasting time finding other area for my tc, + time to get build for finally continue producing villager but with my economy far behind him and difficulty for finding enought food. Everytime its like a 50 min of boring game of battle of villager and where i just know i gonna lose it at the end but still try to find some counter.
I dont even know how people can enjoy this type of strategy. For me its look just like an abuse of a civ bonus who was created not for making that kind of weird stuff but just for protect the huge economy of a persian player who want boom his economy more safely than other and making his villager safer. Seeing villager fighting each other for 50 min is just not enjoyable.
And i see some replay of viper aka the best age of empire player of the world who also strugle against this strategy but finally get the win after a long and boring game but i’m not viper and at 1200 elo i dont know how to quick wall at the lightning speed like him or surround ennemy villager with pallissade in 0.1sec and when i see this guy struggle to counter that strategy with his 500 APM and his level, i wonder how at my level i can counter this type of strategy without his skill
Use palisades to block. You cant run out of wood, you only need like 10 palisades, thats 20 wood.
If you fail to block, IGNORE the TC. Sounds weird, but just keep producing vills. Once your TC dies, you should have your vills in a decent spot to build a new one.
Now all you have to do is to bring 2-4 archers to his base and the game is over.