Please fix Italy: Balance ideas inspired by Denmark's mechanics

[toaf]

Ever since its release, Italy has suffered from the same core issue in Treaty / late game: its army is quite weak because the Bersagliere and Musketeer are noticeably worse than most of their counterparts without being any cheaper. Furthermore, its economy suffers from the lack of a second factory, as the Lombard system doesn’t fully compensate for it.

With the release of the latest DLC, I’ve noticed that Denmark, for instance, features very interesting mechanics that could help improve Italy without heavily changing the civilization’s identity. For example, the Danish Custom Houses have their own shipment system similar to the Basilica. If this system were implemented—meaning Basilica shipments cost XP instead of resources (Of course, scaling by age)—it would solve the biggest flaw of Papal units: the fact that they clog up the standard Home City shipment queue. This change would finally allow them to be a more common sight in the game.

Another noteworthy aspect is that many Danish cards grant promotions instead of direct, flat stat increases to attack or HP. If, let’s say, the “Alpini” card (which is highly specific to the Bersagliere) or the Basilica’s “Resorgimento” technology (which currently only grants overpop) did this for their rifle infantry, it would help improve their army considerably. This would fix their late-game scaling without making them too oppressive in supremacy, since this stat boost would be strictly conditional on the unit actually eliminating an enemy unit. Similarly, if the “Advanced Lombards” card provided a small gold trickle when sent, it would help make Lombards a bit more viable.

Another adjustment worth making is to the Papal Bombard: if it cost 7 population slots and had a movement speed in Bombardment Mode of at least 1.55, it would finally become a decent heavy artillery piece. Lastly, many players have requested a second Factory for the civilization; perhaps granting it automatically immediately upon reaching the Imperial Age could be a more balanced way to implement it.

[Soaring_Crow]

Italy’s late game/Treaty performance is still rough.

Lombards are micromanaging hell even after sending the 2 upgrade cards. I suggest at least adding a gold trickle to all Lombards like taverns/saloons do. I suppose Italy can just get a second factory after Age 5, maybe thru an Age up or Capitol tech. That would be a simple solution to the eco problems.

Regarding the Italian army units, their musket and skirmisher don’t cut it. Italian musketeers are probably the most mediocre musket unit in the game even after being fully carded. Bersaglieri might be good in supremacy with their higher speed and bungle stun. In treaty, having less ranged resistance while still being more expensive than regular skirms is an issue. So much so that the Pavisiers might actually be better, particularly if you ally with a native settlement that had upgrades for archer/archaic units. Their pikes/halberdiers are fine enough.

Italian cavalry is mostly good. Carabinieri should be trainable in the stables as an alternative option to their regular dragoons since they have bonuses against mercs/outlaws. Papal units can vary. Papal Zouave and Papal Lancers are really good. Papal guards and Schiavone aren’t used much. Papal bombards stats aren’t good enough to be an 8-pop unit. Bare minimum it should be 7 pop.

Italy doesn’t have any RG units that aren’t artillery. Yeah, their RG culverins and mortars are good, but these can’t carry Italy’s army. If the developers ever add another RG upgrade for Italy, I recommend the musketeer be a RG unit but I don’t know what name it would have.

[Kingfisher1787]

I wonder if the Imperial Pavs upgrade could changed their wood cost to coin. Bergs are great in Sup for a lot of reasons, so buffing them directly would seem risky.

Obviously a late game economic boost is needed. Maybe a tech in the Lombards that causing a small trickle of wood, food and coin. If it costs like 500w 500f 500c it wouldn’t see much use in Sup.

I like the idea of RG Italian Musketeers. Maybe like +2 range as the bonus at the expense of some of the extra hp and attack (as some RGs do). +35/35% and 1-2 range could be pretty solid.

[toaf]

Pavisiers have never been the solution; years ago, there were calls for them to get Imperial upgrades, but nobody uses them anymore. I don’t think the issue is their wood cost—especially since Italy burns through coin so quickly—but rather that most players have had to go back to using Bersaglieri. I’m not saying their base stats should be increased directly; instead, this could be done indirectly, perhaps through promotions that increase their HP or via the Resurgimiento tech from Bassilica card, to somewhat compensate for that 0.25 ranged resistance, which makes them terrible in the late game.

[Konahrik1140]

My suggestion for improving Italy would be the following:

1) The Factory Card can now be sent twice.

2) Architects don’t cost population if you send Freemasons card or you revolt.

3) Capitalism should also give Lombards a trickle of gold that can be deposited as an investment (0.20 or 0.25 per Lombard).

4) Team House of Savoy now allows you to train the Armored Pistoleer (only for the player who sent the card).

5) Advanced Politicians now also affects revolutions, guaranteeing them one shipment, a +10% bonus to resource gathering, and granting their Lombards 500 of each resource as an investment for each shipment they make.

PS: I would also like the Pavisier to be able to be “upgraded,” in the same way that the German Crossbowman can be upgraded to the Landwehr and the Portuguese Crossbowman to the Ordnance Riflemen.

[Soaring_Crow]

The fact that Pavisiers can outclass Bersaglieri in the Treaty says more about how badly the Bersaglieri scale in comparison to other skirmishers. That said Pavisiers require heavier card investment because they need the Heavy Paveses, Roman Tactics, and Steel Bolts cards to perform their best. Players should also get wood gather rate cards (Sawmills, Exotic Hardwoods) because only 1 factory, no good wood crate shipments, or wood trade cards. This might mean not having enough space for cards that buff the Papal units and Gunpowder units.

Bersaglieri could get an extra 5% HP, damage, and ranged resistance from the Risorgimento tech. Would help them a fair bit.

For the Italian Royal Guard musketeer, my idea was just reusing the Redshirt name since the current ones in-game are Revolutionaries that are shipped once thru a church tech. Just rename them to Redshirt Revolutionary

The RG Redshirt Musketeer for Italy will look different enough if we brighten up the red, give them a different hat, and maybe add a little green and white. They also have different stances and walking animations due to being musketeers.

The Royal Guard upgrade for the Italian Musketeer could look something like this:

Redshirts - Upgrades Musketeers to Redshirts (Guard Musketeers with +10% hit points and damage, and +1 range)

[zeppelino24]

The Italian Risorgimento should receive the same treatment as the Meiji Restoration by updating a large portion of Italy’s military units; currently, all the revolutionary options available to Italy are historically inaccurate, as none of them correctly reflect the Italian uprisings of the 18th and 19th centuries. In fact, to be frank, Italy should be more like Denmark—lacking revolutionary options but possessing a full range of Guard units—since the Italian army was historically quite distinctive and unique in terms of its military composition. The Risorgimento mechanic could then upgrade these units to more modern versions, aligning them with the late 19th-century era through units such as the Alpini and Mule Artillery. In short, Italy ought to be completely reworked and restructured into a more unique model, using the Danish civilization as a reference.

[toaf]

@Konahrik1140

My suggestion for improving Italy would be the following:

1) The Factory Card can now be sent twice.

2) Architects don’t cost population if you send Freemasons card or you revolt.

3) Capitalism should also give Lombards a trickle of gold that can be deposited as an investment (0.20 or 0.25 per Lombard).

4) Team House of Savoy now allows you to train the Armored Pistoleer (only for the player who sent the card).

5) Advanced Politicians now also affects revolutions, guaranteeing them one shipment, a +10% bonus to resource gathering, and granting their Lombards 500 of each resource as an investment for each shipment they make.

PS: I would also like the Pavisier to be able to be “upgraded,” in the same way that the German Crossbowman can be upgraded to the Landwehr and the Portuguese Crossbowman to the Ordnance Riflemen.

I think those are fair bonuses. There are certainly several options, especially for resolving the issue with the second factory without needing to add another card.

@Soaring_Crow

The fact that Pavisiers can outclass Bersaglieri in the Treaty says more about how badly the Bersaglieri scale in comparison to other skirmishers. That said Pavisiers require heavier card investment because they need the Heavy Paveses, Roman Tactics, and Steel Bolts cards to perform their best. Players should also get wood gather rate cards (Sawmills, Exotic Hardwoods) because only 1 factory, no good wood crate shipments, or wood trade cards. This might mean not having enough space for cards that buff the Papal units and Gunpowder units.

I agree on that point: it takes multiple cards just to make pavisiers viable, which means making sacrifices in your deck composition.

@Soaring_Crow

Bersaglieri could get an extra 5% HP, damage, and ranged resistance from the Risorgimento tech. Would help them a fair bit.

It seems like a very good and balanced solution: giving a 5% boost to all stats through Resurgence, applied to all rifle infantry, would make a real difference for the bersaglieri. Furthermore, the best option seems to be a Royal Guard musketeer (whether implemented as Redshirts, Alpini, etc.) that features one or a combination of these traits: better stats, increased range, ranged resistance (RR), an extra bonus against cavalry, or higher speed.

@zeppelino24

The Italian Risorgimento should receive the same treatment as the Meiji Restoration by updating a large portion of Italy’s military units; currently, all the revolutionary options available to Italy are historically inaccurate, as none of them correctly reflect the Italian uprisings of the 18th and 19th centuries. In fact, to be frank, Italy should be more like Denmark—lacking revolutionary options but possessing a full range of Guard units—since the Italian army was historically quite distinctive and unique in terms of its military composition. The Risorgimento mechanic could then upgrade these units to more modern versions, aligning them with the late 19th-century era through units such as the Alpini and Mule Artillery. In short, Italy ought to be completely reworked and restructured into a more unique model, using the Danish civilization as a reference.

Yeah, Risorgimento is a very disappointing technology; it alerts every player that you’ve researched it, yet it only summons 15 Revolutionary-type units. It really ought to provide a permanent, game-changing effect, just as suggested above.

[Soaring_Crow]

@zeppelino24

The Italian Risorgimento should receive the same treatment as the Meiji Restoration by updating a large portion of Italy’s military units;

Hmmm… interesting. You might be cooking something there. Italy is bit of “composite civilization” right now. It’s a blend of the various Italian states and has a wide timeframe of Renaissance to Risorgimento eras. AoE3 timeline starts around late 15th century and ends around the mid-late 18th century; so, it was a given.

Italy might benefit from a Meiji-style modernization overhaul though some units would remain pretty much the same apart from some name changes here and there. I’ll focus on the tech first and then the units themselves. This is a general concept so it won’t be very balanced, but it’ll be cool.

First off “Classic Italy” would remain as how it works now. Select the Age V politician, get to Age V, unlock Imperial Upgrades, make a Capitol, and all that. No changes.

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Now the alternative Age-up option. I could make it a revolution option but that would require a whole new HCC deck. If someone wants to make a Kingdom of Italy revolution deck, be my guest.

For the sake of simplicity, I’ll update the Risorgimento church tech to do a similar effect. It would be an alternative age up, but the tech would cost 5000 food/5000 coin.

Risorgimento - Advances the player to the Imperial Age. Overhauls the Italian military among other bonuses and drawbacks.

Flag would change to the Kingdom of Italy flag.

• All Italian Infantry, Calvary, and Grenadier units are upgraded to Guard level automatically for free. All Imperial upgrades can be researched at their regular costs.

• The Capitol can be built and has some unique techs:

Regia Marina - Replaces Galleons with Steamers and Monitors with Ironclads at Docks; Ironclad train limit +2.

Terni Steelworks - Sends 1 Factory Wagon and 1 Coal Prospector Wagon.

Pater Patriae - Giuseppe Garibaldi joins the battle alongside his Redshirt Revolutionaries! Sends 1 Italian General (Giuseppe Garibaldi) and 20 Redshirt Revolutionaries. Redshirt Revolutionaries can be trained at Town Centers. Italian General is a mounted unit that can receive shipments and build Forts. Fort build limit +1

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Pavisiers are replaced with Alpini Riflemen, more or less following the template that other Crossbow skirmisher replacements do. We already have Bersagliere.

Alpini Riflemen - Italian skirmisher specialized in alpine combat. Inflicts higher base damage and moves quickly but has less range than regular skirmishers (18 instead of the usual 20)

• The Alpini HCC would be updated to affect the Alpini Riflemen.

Alpini - Bersaglieri and Alpini Riflemen get +15% attack. They both now prioritize their ranged attacks on Heavy Infantry and Light ranged cavalry

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Italian Hussars are replaced with Lancieri

Lancieri - Italian heavy cavalry that are very effective against infantry (x3)

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Italian Dragoons are replaced with Carabinieri

Carabinieri - Italian ranged light cavalry equipped with a carbine repeater. Good against Heavy Cavalry and Artillery. Does bonus damage against outlaws and mercenaries (1.5x).

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Redshirt Revolutionaries can be trained from town centers after researching the Pater Patriae tech. These Revolutionaries retain their current bonuses including 2.0x bonus damage against heroes.

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We already have Bersagliere unlocked. They remain fully trainable.

Bersaglieri get stat increases of +5% HP, damage, and ranged resistance from the Risorgimento tech.

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Same deal with Musketeers. I will include the concept I made for a Royal Guard upgrade for the Italian musketeer but tweaked a little bit. The RG upgrade is available even without doing the Risorgimento.

Garibaldino - Upgrades Musketeers to Garibaldino Musketeers (Guard Musketeers with +10% hit points and damage, and +1 range)

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Italian Grenadiers are replaced with Sardegna Granatieri

Sardegna Granatieri - Heavy siege infantrymen armed with hand mortars to defeat infantry or buildings. Benefits from Valor Promotions for extra hit points and faster attack speed.

(The effects of the Grenades Launchers HCC are automatically obtained after the Risorgimento tech is complete: Grenadier Line of Sight +2, replaces ranged attack with mortar attack. The Arsenal tech Incendiary Grenades is automatically researched)

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At the Italian Artillery Foundry, the RG upgrades remain the same for Culverin (Spingarde) and Mortar (Galilean Mortar). Falconets and Horse Artillery are still trainable.

Italian Halberdiers and Pikemen are unchanged at the Barracks. You can still train them and unlock their Imperial upgrades, but they don’t gain any benefits from the Risorgimento.

Papal Bombards at the Factory are replaced by Heavy Cannons, which can still be upgraded to Imperial.

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DRAWBACKS

• Basilica shipments arrive 75% slower
• XP trickle rate is reduced by 30%
• Pavisiers are no longer trainable
• Papal Bombards can no longer be made from Factories
• Architects build buildings 65% slower

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I could add more techs at the Capitol, but I wanted to keep it focused on the military. The core Italian army will be strong enough to where it doesn’t have to rely so much on Papal units. As always, feel free to give suggestions.

[NotOnline123134]

Funniest shit is that the new polish leicai crossbows have all the cards the maltese and italians need to make them decent baked in. +1 range to 20 which is a significant and automatically makes them better.

[zeppelino24]

You took the words right out of my mouth; I think that is exactly what I was thinking. We could make a few adjustments by removing the crossbowmen and pikemen from the Italian Risorgimento uprising; historically, the Italian army stopped using pikes in the early 19th century, retaining halberdiers only as royal guard units for the various Italian duchies. I also took the liberty of tweaking the military units based on your proposal. The dispatch of Papal units from the Basilica is cancelled. Priests are upgraded to Cardinals, who heal wounded units faster and can heal multiple units simultaneously. It should be understood that this Italian progression is identical to the Meiji Restoration mechanic, which only upgrades military units but does not feature exclusive Revolution cards as such.

P.S. I still find it funny that quite a few people are against adding the Alpini to the Italian civilization, considering there is already a nod to them in the Alpini HCC.

Risorgimento Italiano: Your colonists transform into Redshirts. Upgrade your entire old Italian army into a more modern force and enable Redshirts (Revolutionaries) in urban centers. Giuseppe Garibaldi appears on the map to lead the Italian unification uprising. The dispatch of Papal units from the Basilica is cancelled. Priests are upgraded to Cardinals.

Giuseppe Garibaldi: Hero of the Italian Risorgimento. He can plant an inspiring flag that boosts the attack and health of military units, and can also create Redshirt (revolutionaries).

Cardinal: Priests are upgraded to Cardinals, who heal wounded units faster and can heal multiple units at once.

Redshirts: Italian revolutionary. Active in urban centers.

Alpini: Italian Tactical Rifleman who boosts his stats when near natural features such as trees, mines, or high ground. Replaces Crossbowmen and Pikemen at the Barracks. The Alpini have +1 Rang.

Alabardiere di Parma: Italian Guard Halberdier that absorbs part of the damage dealt to your military units. Alabardiere di Parma replace the standard halberdier in the barracks.

Garibaldi Legion: An Italian musketeer who counters cavalry more effectively by using more modern bayonets; he possesses 15% higher melee attack and 10% higher distance attack. Garibaldi Legion replace the standard musketeers in the barracks.

Lancieri: Italian Lancieri are available at the stables. the Lancieri possess a bonus against infantry.

Carabinieri: The Carabinieri replace the standard Dragoons in the stables. The Carabinieri feature 5% greater speed and +1 range.

Sardegna Granatieri: Modern Grenadier feature a +25% damage bonus against buildings and are now armed with a musket to counter ranged units more effectively, although their attack is weaker than that of a standard musketeer. The Sardegna Granatieri replace standard grenadiers at the Artillery Foundry.

Mule Artillery: Replaces Falconets at the Artillery Foundry. Mule Artillery has +5% movement speed and 15% higher attack.

[toaf]

I must say the idea is absolutely brilliant. I mean, it would genuinely be one of the most creative ways to fix Italy. Essentially, it would mean having Supremacy Italy and Treaty Italy in the Imperial Age. It would be great if this age advancement cost around 2,500 of each resource, making it quite attractive. However, as it has been discussed, I’m not sure how to give the alpini a distinct role from the bersagliere. I don’t know, maybe approaching it similarly to the Danish fryskskyte could work.

[Soaring_Crow]

Yeah, I was going for alternative age up that had more end-game potential. It could still be used in a Supremacy match, but it would take some planning. I would still like “Classic Italy” with the Pavisiers, Papal units, etc. to be more viable in the late game, hence my suggestion to include the RG upgrade for Italian Musketeers. We could also make Papal units arrive faster. Lower the pop cost of Papal Bombards to 7 and increasing their siege resistance to better improve their role of protecting allied artillery units. Make Lombards less of a pain to micro-manage.

I did make a concept for a new Royal House: House of Medici. The Italians would have the ability to ally with them via HCC like France can do with House of Bourbon. Italy would get some nice eco boosts from that alliance.

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@toaf

However, as it has been discussed, I’m not sure how to give the alpini a distinct role from the bersagliere. I don’t know, maybe approaching it similarly to the Danish fryskskyte could work.

There are ways to make the Alpini Riflemen distinct from the Bersagliere. It wouldn’t be the first civilization to have 2 rifle wielding skirmisher units.

The easy route is just making them work like other Crossbow replacement skirmishers and keeping their Food/Wood costs.

You can also give them special features like the stealth ability or getting increased stats for being around natural resources like the Salteador can potentially do. I don’t want them to completely outclass the Bersagliere though.

[LtSturm]

I’m not sure about the “Italy Eco is weak” thing. Their bonus of a free villager every tech is functionally giving you a wide advantage in raw production numbers if you do the thing of “Xpanding”: as long you aren’t a musclehead who wants to rush-out all your problems, you will have more than enough vills. This fit perfectly with the lombard, because you can sell many of your current resources and get a steady flow of resources for later.

[toaf]

During the booming phase, it gives you certain advantages—like getting most of your base for free and reaching the villager cap sooner—but once the war of attrition begins, you simply can’t sustain it; you run out of gold even if you’re winning. That said, I’m not sure how much that actually impacts the ‘paper army’ they have

[toaf]

I suppose it could be implemented like the Meiji Restoration, meaning you wouldn’t have to design entirely new units, but rather just reskin the existing ones. For example, the Lancieri could use the Uhlans from the Prussian Revolution. I think the Garibaldini would just require changing the Revolutionary unit’s skin to that of a Musketeer, replacing the Dragoons with carbine cavalry, and giving the Grenadiers a reskin.

Essentially, almost everything is already there

[zeppelino24]

Exactly; basically, the work required from the developers for this request would be minimal from that perspective, since most of the units could be reused from existing ones in the game, requiring only slight changes to their appearance.

[Soaring_Crow]

The Risorgimento changes are a good way improve Italy’s late game, at in terms of their military. Those are more prefer using Papal units via the Basilica would still have the option to do a regular age-up with Italy.

Oh, I forgot about this Basilica unit, the Schiavone.

The Schiavone is the only unit trainable from the Basilica that does not get any special ability with the Papal Arsenal HCC. I’d just make them available for regular training once the improved Risorgimento tech is researched. They feel distinct enough from the other Papal units so they wouldn’t feel out of place.