Please Fix the “Fur Trade Mechanic”

Cuz I don’t like arbitrary name changes for political correctness.

Yea ppl had plantations back then, and they had slaves too. Ffs warhammer 40k chaos uses literal slaves and wc3 naga uses slave murlocs, aoe 3, a game about empires and new colonies, can’t even call things a plantation…

1 Like

Neither do I, but this thread is about the botched implementation of “fur trading”, not the names. Plantations should have never been renamed, but still, please be civil.

4 Likes

My apologies, lakota.

3 Likes

I still don’t understand the firepit thing at least not for the Haudenosaunee. Dancing was a major part of their culture. Honestly I think it was a case of their consultants, indigenous or not, viewing the dancing though the “civilized” European lens. They viewed dancing and hollering as “savage” and decided that it was an offensive stereotype even if it actually happened and wasn’t something First Nations of the time felt ashamed of.

It seems to me that Anthony Brave is ashamed of some native practices and is trying to distance modern perceptions of Native Americans and First Nations from their traditional back grounds, but only when he feels that background is “unflattering”.

But India has a special use for livestock (same for Japan). It captures the essence of Indians worship of cows. And Japan not eating animals. The fur trade thing is just left in a black hole of civ designs. Do you think the new fur thing really captures the essence of Lakota fur trade?

This is true, but the current hitpoints boost does basically nothing for this. They can eat a few more shots from cannons, but still can’t really hit back.

For teepees, I’d give them the following features:

  • +5% yield to nearby resources (stacks per teepee)

  • The ability to pack up and move and to receive economic shipments

  • A toggle for coin collection from hunts. This could even be concentrated in the teepee itself. Something like a -10% gathering rate, but the teepee generates coin equivalent to the lost food income.

  • A very slow healing rate and a boost to villager attack (so they can down hunts near to the teepee)

  • An upgrade to increase the healing and attack boost and have it apply to military units

  • Faster cooldown for charged attacks near teepees (and a rework to some units to make this relevant)

I probably wouldn’t go with an Arrow Knight equivalent since swapping the place of Cetan Bowman and Wakina Rifle kinda messes up the technological progression from bows to guns.

Instead, I’d give Wakina Rifle the Eagle Eye charged attack (like what Cree trackers get from the one US card) so they can be the long-ranged snipers. Combine that with an attack boost and faster charged attack refreshing from teepees, and they could be the unit that gives you long-ranged damage output. Since they’d still be vulnerable to artillery, you could add in a few upgrades to give Bow Riders a multiplier vs artillery or even a Maneuver ability for Club Warriors to temporarily avoid snaring.

Not really related to this issue, but for dealing with buildings, Lakota could also have rams like I described here: Should Native civs have the options of more captured artillery? [+Poll] - #12 by M00Z1LLA

They could’ve just not let Lakota mine gold, and allow the ability later on through card or upgrade. It seems reasonable in an what-if? game to let them be able to mine later on? Only lategame musket armed units and their upgrades shouldve really cost gold for them. Give the Lakota some fur trading references in cards that increase the sales value of food and wood in the… y’know… market?

Yep. I’m personally fine about the Teepees.

It’s been a solid mechanic for almost twenty years and it works great for what was designed to do. I don’t think we should mess with it just because “reasons”.

The fur trade “thing” in the other hand…geez. Someone just nuke it. :roll_eyes:

2 Likes

I meant to respond to this a few days ago, but my modem blew up. So no internet and the mobile version of this website is absolute trash to try and work with.

Anyway, I am fully aware that dancing is a huge part of the culture of Native Americans.

However

I believe this was omitted because it represents a part of the cultures that isn’t for public consumption. I can’t even discuss some of the dances outside the dances themselves or when talking directly to the Medicine Man. Putting it in a game would be disrespectful to us, especially in something like this where they had an actual Native to help with it.

Dancing isn’t something we’re ashamed of, or trying to make appear less “savage”. Granted, the whole concept of dancing around a fire like that just straight-up didn’t happen, but I don’t think that’s why it was removed.

2 Likes

Forgotten Empires ?
[ 20 char ]

1 Like

I was thinking of ideas on how it could be done, and this was the best idea I had.

Designating a mine a sacred site, placing some sort of markers around it, something like the shrines of the Japanese. These structures could passively generate coin without depleting the mine, similar to a shrine generating food without killing the animals.

The explanation could be that having a sacred site in your territory is encouraging pilgrimages and thus bringing trade to your town.

2 Likes

Well that answers my question regarding the Lakota. If dances are sacred and it is the will of the Lakota people not to have these traditions represented in-game then I completely respect that and endorse its exclusion.

I’m curious about one thing however: Respectfully, how are you so sure that Lakota never danced around a fire? I know if I danced and there was a big center-piece in the room like a large bonfire it would come naturally to me to dance around it.

Of course I’m not asking for any details or disclosure of dances or ceremonies not meant for public consumption, in case such details would otherwise be relevant to answering the question.

It already costs 25 wood.

You need to setup 2 to be even with your non-native enemies. So 50 wood.

The firepit model from the original game was directly based on an extremely sacred dance that’s only performed once a year, and can and has killed people performing it.

That should be enough information about why it was a bad choice to use it.

2 Likes

reduce the market to 5 wood(actually with the precedent of the african civs it can be free) and boost the gold rate by another 20% ( or yield, that could be interesting, or both)

Basically give them free placer mines ( which they already have, and free amalgamation. That alone should make it worth it

can also increase the radius at which they can be built, make it more defensive (for Lakota, haud doesnt need it)

edit: set it so that the rate at the market is the base rate, allowing techs that increase gather rate to scale off the higher base rate as well.

In addition, if the number of gatherers on the market is really that much of a problem, increase it to 15, with the +30% its the same as having 19.5 un-upgraded vils

What ? [Character Limit]

The accounts of the Sun Dance sound quite brutal so the fact that there were deaths isn’t surprising.

http://aktalakota.stjo.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8668

I initialy interpreted it as ‘dead people performing the dance’ lol

In the end they could just keep the cost but bump slots to 20. The fact that you need 50 wood to keep even with your enemies is annoying.