[Poll] Champion upgrade : Reduced cost or better stat

Just fully remove THS from the game and give longsword +1 atk. Compensate Bulg and Malay accordingly.

Champion is the iconic foot soldier, THS is like that odd step-brother who gets ignored all the time. Everyone tries the switch to militia-line will try to push for Champion asap.

I get the point of your comment, but I think it’s very funny to say that they were “great” at any point in the past 11.

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Well I heard they were great in AoK 11.

But yeah they were never great since I play the game, it was just a quote/way of speaking.

Maybe in Imperial Age. I don’t think Castle Age LS needs any more attacks.

Castle age LS is not widely used. Dont think +1atk would make them OP

I agree it won’t make them OP or anything. But they don’t need attack either. Their job in Castle Age is limited to counter Eagle and they can do that fine as long as they can force the fight. They need extra speed if anything. However I won’t advocate this change on their stats for all 42 civs. Can be added as a Barracks tech replacing Arson in the future.

Well my point was not to make them more useful on very rare occasions. Rather make them more easily accessible in imp when doing a tech switch from Archers/Cavs to militia-line. LS +atk would mostly be to compensate those very few CIVs that do not get Champions.

I read Imperial Age Champion rush tactic existed in AoK times but I don’t know how they do because AoK Champion had 0 Pierce Armor and 60f 20g. Castle Age Crosbbow should destroy old Champion. I don’t remember Militia-line get any nerf, it always get more buff than Cavalry and Archer units.

Aok had no bl and no tr. Adding those techs was a huge buff to archer and cav.
However, i think the slower speed of players and higher lag also favoured champion play - eg champ vs archer, the champions can just stream forward but the archers need to be microed to win.

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+1 PA and supplies are stronger than Bloodlines (20 hp), but I am not sure for Thumb Ring (17% attack speed, 100% accuracy). Players also go cavalry&archer with civs lacking bloodlines and Thumb Ring. Mostly high lag favoured Champion in my opinion.

But how a +1 attack of LS which is a Castle Age unit helps that?

By fully removing THS unit.

Ahh. Okay.
I’ll increase THS HP instead. Cost should also be increased. 65 HP with 350f/150g upgrade cost.

Champion can be a very exclusive upgrade and will get +1MA over current. Cost can be remained same.

It seems more nerf than buff if most civs lose champion. FU champion already has mediocre power that they lose to Bulgarian Hussar in equal number, and you want to make champion exclusive by just increasing the stat of THS a little (That is even weaker than current champion)?

Just can make champion +1MA and also most infantry UU can have +1MA as well, and they still be niche unit but can have edge against low-attack unit including Hussar.

Yeah another tech would be much more interesting and could be something that buffs even UUs unlike supplies, the same way bloodlines buffs all cavalry, but arson atm is just a taxi since everyone has it so it feels like an added unnecessary cost for an already super expensive unit line

This would leave room for something cooler, while also openonf the case to remove goth bonus (since they would already have it by default with this change) to give them something new or expand an ols bonus in compensation

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12 attack vs 13 attack doesn’t make any change most of the time. I need to calculate the impact of losing 5 HP.

I also thought 70 HP 11 attack THS and 80 HP 13 attack Champion. But that could be too big buff for some civ like Malians and Vikings.

regardless of the poll, the champion line needs buff. Reducing the upgrade cost or buffing base stats ain’t the only ways. They could make it so that supply also reduces gold cost by 5 or introduce a new tech that’s equal to bloodline for militia line.

Both those civs, or almost all infantry civs for that matter, are not overperforming and are kinda average if not slightly below average (can’t remember last time i saw malians in a big tournament) so they could be buffed in this way without to much problems.

I mean, as Vikings, your Champions will have 86 HP instead of 84. That’s just not a problem since they not even a threat now and Vikings win condition is not the late game, when the Champion becomes relevant

Great observation. I think the main problem is how much the two handed swordsman upgrade does. Overall the militia line needs some sort of buff to be more useful overall but Two handed swordsman should become relatively weaker to make the champion upgrade useful.

Btw, the Imperial camel upgrade is also terribly overpriced. The super strong Hindustani eco masks this flawed upgrade most of the times but actually its the most expensive camel related upgrade for the value it adds compared to Farimba, Frontier guards and Zealotry. And all those upgrades impact multiple unit types as well. The Camel line upgrades needs some rework too. Either imperial camels need more bonus against other camels or get some extra cavalry class armor to take less damage from halbs or something useful like that to justify such a cost.

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Imo UTs are often underpriced as they are locked behind castle. Unless the civ is really strong even without the bonus, usually UTs cost is smaller than a regular upgrade (Blacksmith or Barracks/Stable).

They get a TT reduction.