[Poll]First Persians+Saracens then Chinese+Koreans. Which pair of classical civs next?

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
21

My point is that as long as the change of obtaining the ability to fire rocket volleys is irreversible, at the very least, changing the cannon fire into a charged attack would help players understand and get used to the diffirent attack types more intuitively, rather than shoving both attack types into a single attack cycle as it is now (while the charging can be understood as another attack cycle).

You can say the same thing about any UT that affects UU as well, for example, instead of improving the Longboat through the Imperial UT, they should just directly buff the Elite Longboat. In the end, this kind of argument just becomes tedious.

22

I understand your reasoning, but since the ability to fire rockets is obviously not irreversible, I donā€™t see the point of it, sorry.

The difference here is that the longboat already shot arrows before Bogsveigar was introduced. The turtle ship didnā€™t shoot rockets until the same update that made it affected by shinkichon.

We are quite off-topic now, anyway. But I guess the civ rework I really want is for Koreans to be reworked back into something closer to what they used to be.

23

One of the reasons for letting Turtle Ships fire rockets, in my opinion, is that besides promoting the use of new toys, there are other valid purposes as well. The original Turtle Ship was not only expensive, but also slow in movement and slow to fire. It stood almost no chance against Fire Ships, and it had no clear advantage when facing Demolition Ships or Galleons.

If their cannon attack or their cannon fire rate were simply increased, their high HP could easily make them overpowered. Now that their cannon attack has been reduced in exchange for the ability to fire additional rockets, they can deal damage more effectively without significantly increasing their DPS. This gently improves their survivability while keeping their overall power in check.

So, I donā€™t think they can ever go back to the pre-rocket version. Iā€™m just accepting it and moving on. If the Koreans ever get another chance for a rework, Iā€™d like to see the War Wagon fire rockets.

24

I donā€™t think this was the motivation. The patch notes from when the rockets were added say ā€œNow more effective vs. Galley-line but more vulnerable vs. Demolition Shipsā€, but the rockets originally dealt pierce damage which is bad against fire ships, plus they reduced their ship class armour so effectively boosted fire ship bonus damage against them. So the aim seems to have been to make them better against galleys but worse against everything else.

25

Something I want to add about Huns that I forgot to mention on my last comment.

Tarkan is still underused because Paladin is just way better all-rounder. The trade off of Tarkanā€™s high HP and anti-building is not enough to compete against Paladin who is far better in melee even after Tarkan got its ROF buff. Worth to mention Paladin covers its lower PA by killing both Arbalester and HCA 1 hit earlier (3 against Arbalester and 7 against HCA. Tarkan need 4 hits to kill Arbalester and 8 to kill HCA). Likewise they kill E.Skirms, which you will face a lot as huns, 1 hit earlier.

Iā€™m planning for this one since TMR DLC and finalize a Paladin replacement for Huns+Cumans. Both of them coincidentally also have some questionable Imperial Age UT. So Iā€™m planning to make Cumans new Paladin replacement almost the same as current Paladin with better historical name and design. While Huns will trade off its arrow resistance for a slightly above average melee performance, maybe same as Savar which barely beats Paladin in 1v1.

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26

I think ideally tarkans should promarily be a siege weapon, not an all-rounder. So maybe tarkans are actually outcompeted by siege rams, not paladins?

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27

This is why I like to say that Huns should instead lose Siege or Capped Rams; maybe they can gain something as compensation, such as Onager/Siege Onager, but the fact remains is that their melee anti-building UU is so far outclassed by the generic melee anti-building unit that Tarkansā€™ speed doesnā€™t apply for much.

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I think Tarkans currently should be viewed as a cheaper and easily gathered anti-archer cavalry unit, while Paladins, by comparison, are more expensive but more versatile and more powerful cavalry. When a Huns player is already using Paladins, thereā€™s little incentive to use Tarkans. However, if the player chooses to go with HCAs, then in the late game Elite Tarkans are easier to access than Paladins.

As a melee siege option, Rams just have better pierce armor and higher damage against buildings. Although Tarkans are faster than Rams, they still require cover during a siege.

In my opinion, Tarkans still not efficient enough even for raiding. Hussars and HCAs are still more practical options, because destroying buildings is not the primary goal, quickly killing villagers and trade units is. If the opponent has walled, using Rams or Trebuchets to break the walls is still the more practical option for raiding.

If Tarkans are ideally meant to function as a kind of siege unit, then I think they should be able to throw torches rather than only weild them in melee. As long as you can mass a group of Tarkans, even giving them just 1 or 2 range would greatly help with attacking buildings (especially walls). Otherwise, most Tarkans canā€™t even reach the target.

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Yeah, its meant to be the civs fast ā€œramā€

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Aztec : just add a chinampa (see topic) as replacement for the fish trap. Maya can be splitted. New architectural set for the aztec. New civilization (tarascan, purƩpƩcha). New regional unit.

For steppe civilizations (mongols, huns, cumans, khitans, not the tattar a poll say that they must keep the farm) add pasture (and balance the pasture) Also new architectural set (western and eastern steppe), steppe camel as regional replacement for the camel rider (for the tatars too)

Britons + Celt

A new DLC splitting those two civilization britton will became the English (they keep the actual britton icon) and gain a footed mele UU. Longbow become a regional replacement for crossbow and arbalester for the english and the welsh (new civilization)

Celt become the scott, replace the woad raider by the gallowglass.Woad raider UU are kept for a pictish civilization or moving to a chronicle civilization. Irish will be added.

Also adding a saxon civilization featuring the anglosaxon will be good with huskarl as a regional unit for the saxon, viking, goth (and upcoming civilizations : vandal, suebi)

Japanese : add the tanegashima ashigaru as a UU who replace the handcanonner, a weakest and cheaper version of this unit. Also we can split the japanese in various faction with a sengoku DLC or add the Ainu.

Goths need a rework to remove their gunpowder unit. Maybe as part of a migration period DLC (see topic) with suebi, alans and vandal. Huskarl become a regional unit.

Spanish : renamed castillan and new civilization will be added : basque (Navare kingdom), catalan (Aragon kingdom). Caravel can become a regional unit.

Byzantine doesnā€™t nedd a rework, only a new architectural set with the bulgarians, georgians and armenian.

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31

Interesting except Magyars all the forgotten civis have been split/changed.

Original Slavs still the same but other slavic factions added bulgarians poles bohemians.

Original Indians now split to 4.

Italians still the same but sicilians and romans added.

Incas split/changed with the upcoming dlc.

32

inca is not going to be split at all, all the new civs are relatively far and were never part of their empire

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33

Very interesting. I never thought this way. I really like fruitful discussion like this.

Maybe all the Tarkan buffs on making them better in melee combat was bad idea. Could they be instead stay slower attacking but tougher against buildings and even more resistance against archer units?

Letā€™s wait till the DLC is official. Incas may not go through big changes.

34

I hope for Slavs reworked to Kievan Rus with own campaign about Yaroslav the Wise ( Maybe with potential Dlc with Grand Duchy of Moscow and Novogorod Republic).

2 Likes
35

I was almost finishing Huns+Mongols and Cumans rework ideas and then announcement of TLC is dropped. So I paused that ideas and came up with some ideas for Aztecs+Maya rework.

Maya

Eagle Line is renamed as a new unit appropriate for Maya and gets ā€œUnique Unitā€ armor class.
ā€œEl Doradoā€ will probably be renamed to ā€œCotton Armorā€ with water rework patch. But Iā€™m not sure if the effect will be changed. Iā€™d propose a small buff to the tech in this power creeping era. Revert its research time. And Iā€™m not seeing Plumed Archer as much. So Iā€™ll say reduce their base cost 55w/55g ā†’ 45w/55g.

Aztecs

Can build a new UB - House of Warriors from Castle Age. The building can train EW at the same speed as Barracks and JW at the half of the speed of a castle. Cost 300w and 75 sec to build. +300HP over Barracks. Rest are same as a Barrack.

Jaguar Warrior

Attack and attack bonus is reverted. The special ability +1 attack/kill is remained. Speed increased 1.00 ā†’ 1.15.

Eagle line

Cost changed 20f/50g ā†’ 15f/60g

Feudal Age
Training Time reduced 50 sec ā†’ 45 sec
Attack increased 4 ā†’ 5

Castle Age
Upgrade cost 200f/200g ā†’ 150f/250g
Upgrade time reduced 50 sec ā†’ 40 sec
Training Time reduced 35 sec ā†’ 32 sec
Speed increased 1.15 ā†’ 1.20

Imperial Age
Upgrade cost 800f/500g ā†’ 500f/800g
HP increased 60 ā†’ 65
Attack 9 ā†’ 10

36

you know how in Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds, the Gungansā€™ buildings made swamp terrain when they built buildings? i always thought that would be cool for the Aztecs since they built their city on a lake.

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I donā€™t understand the purpose of this. Shouldnā€™t the Aztecs are the ones the Eagles become unique to?

I would much rather see the Eagle line be renamed and reskinned into a more generic shock infantry line for civs other than the Aztecs. On the other hand, the Aztecs could keep the Eagle line and have new stats, turning the line into a unique unit line.

Personally, I hope the new effects would be more well-rounded, rather than giving a massive boost to a single stat for a single unit.

I guess your intention is to encourage people to use Jaguar Warriors more. Just think that introducing a new building that is not particularly special for that purpose feels a bit redundant. If it instead cost some stone and was able to fire arrows as a defensive structure, it might be somewhat interesting but that would be a bit similar to the Krepost.

Speaking of the Aztecs, they lack Halberdiers, so Iā€™d like to see the (Elite) Butterfly Warrior (or Papalotl) replace the Longswordsman ā†’ Champion. It would have lower base attack (e.g. āˆ’2) but gain a modest bonus against cavalry (e.g. +5), making it better than a standard Longswordsman against cavalry but weaker against others like infantry. Compared to Pikeman, it would still deal significantly less damage to cavalry, but would be more versatile overall. If they were able to build the House of Warriors, it might contain the Butterflies along with Eagles and Jaguars.

Also, speaking of unique buildings, Iā€™ve seen quite a few mentions of the Chinampa. Perhaps it could be a unique 2Ɨ2 fish trap that looks like a small farm, provides more cost-effective food than 4 fish traps, and has to be built and harvested by fishing ships on the water. However, no matter what, it would still just be another kind of fish trap, nothing particularly special or necessary, unless it provides something not food.

38

Both of the civs will have their own Shock Infantry UU. Aztecs will have EW with some changes, Maya will get a new one with a new name but same stat as current EW.

I also wish it gives some HP to Plumed Archer as well. Iā€™m a huge fan of the unit and hate to see the unit having not enough play.

And also Aztecs is not designed to play defensive.

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Guess Im correct to a level.

Hangin there Magyars your time will come.

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Yeah. I am surprised Incas got these many changes when no mention of Aztecs+Maya.

Magyars is fine. If anything I will say Slavs will get a proper rework.