[Poll] How many Europeans should the game have?

I think it is interesting how people with very little knowledge about military history accuse others of being “narrow minded” or “Eurocentric” as soon as these others do not want to add such and such South-East Asian political entity to the game.

Let’s imagine that this game wasn’t about military power, but instead about ancient philosophy. A game called Age of Ancient Schools of Philosophy or something like that.
Obviously such as game would include many political entities from all around the world, from Ancient India, to Ancient Egypt and Ancient China. However, no serious analyst would claim that the Ancient Greeks wouldn’t be overrepresented in this fictional game.

You can then make a forumpost and argue that the game needs this or that tribe from Africa, because “scientists have found some stones in a cave with some writing on it”.
“And if you disagree you are just very narrow-minded and Greek-centric”

Seriously though. This is the type of reasoning that is often being used.
“Hey, I am open-minded and therefore I want the Maori added to the game and put them on par with the French and the English and if you disagree you are just narrow-minded and Eurocentric”

Perhaps it would be useful for some people to realize a few things:

  1. Even during the period called “The Middle Ages” (which some people like to look down upon), European political entities were overly invested in military progress. Europe was a horribly violent place, with a strong honor culture. For a man, the chance of dying as a result of a steel object being rammed into the body was ridiculously high.
  2. Because no political entity every united Europe under a single banner, the culture of strong competition was never ended and went on for 1000+ years! This is something that is unique in world history and also something that had consequences for the way that Europe developed in comparison to other places in the world. Europe ended up with such a strong advantage in the area of military in comparison to the rest of the world that they could colonize much of the world.

So yes, even during the Middle Ages, European political entities were powerhouses, despite of their small size in comparison to empires outside of Europe. It isn’t as if it is a coincidence that no power from outside of Europe ever successfully conquered Europe, despite of continuous attempts by the Jihad from the South and the Steppe Nomads from the East.

Now, am I claiming that there weren’t any strong political entities outside of Europe? No, not at all.
I, in fact, DO think that there should one or two additional Indian civs; but not more than that. Also, other known non-European powers should be added to the game, such as Turks and Japanese. YES, the game should include ALL military powers around the entire world, but ONLY those who live up to a certain military strength. Just like the fictional game Age of Ancient Schools of Philosophy should only contain nations that live up to a certain standard in this specific area!

But I also think that adding much from Africa, the Americas or Oceania is basically nonsense. The counter argument is then often: “But such and such civilisation was very powerful! They had elephants and warriors and this and that”. The problem with this type of reasoning is that literally every political entity that ever existed for a length of time had SOMETHING to defend themselves against their neighbors. However, If their neighbors weren’t of the military caliber of the the French or the Chinese, it means nothing. And No: winning one battle against the Persians or the Turks isn’t enough.

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I like medieval Europe as a setting. As interesting as all these splinter civilisations are from the past I they don’t hold my interest when I think of medieval times. I feel this poll is pretty woke seeing Europe isn’t even an option and if you do think that this game somehow doesn’t belong to you.

The Inca can absolutely be added, and if you want to go in depth, sure: add the Quilmes for instance. Their history is fascinating (even though most people over here are only aware of the beer brand, named after the people who fought both the Inca and the Spanish off).

But leaving the strictly historical aspect aside, and thinking mostly about the gameplay aspect:

other than the Inca? It was an honest question. If they focus on intricately detailed campaigns about these people, I’d be interested.

But what about the multiplayer, competitive side of the game? It’s a huge thing in AoE, creating fun skirmishes with impossible scenarios. How would the Quilmes be balanced against the Chinese, considering how the civs are presented in AoE4? I’m not sure that’s even possible.

Again, I don’t think military prowess and size should be the only criteria to add civilizations. I believe I said that to the guy that insistently advocated for the Ottomans to be included. Just bringing up my concerns regarding balance.

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The first poll is literally just about Europe.
The fact that 2 of the 3 answers are Eurocentric (yes 50% is Eurocentric in a time where China alone is bigger than all of Europe combined in population, economy and military)
While one being super Eurocentric. Basically degrading the rest of the world to just be some little flavour added to the game.
The least Eurocentric option can still be very Eurocentric, I think having 1/3 of the Civilisations being European is already much.

The second poll also has the “none” option.

But that was all after the Middle Ages.
At the end of the Middle Ages they were not that powerful yet.

But I still think forcing the Native Americans to only exist in the context of being compared to Europeans is stupid.
You are also fine with adding the Japanese aren’t you? They didn’t have much to do with Europeans in the Middle Ages did they?
You would also not mind them having strong Swordman despite their swords being proven to be worse than European Late Medieval swords and they also had weaker armour too.
But the Japanese were resistant to smallpox so they couldn’t just be conquered.

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I really had no idea bout this so it was a cool addition.

Whats wrong with playing a tribe in a videogame?
Do we pick civs to have a fun and unique experience or do we pick them to live some weird power fantasy?

Why have we set this arbitrary restriction though?

Why do we have to be consigned to playing history’s “greatest hits”?
Whats wrong with playing some obscure historical kingdom/nation?

IMO I only care about what game mechanics/experience civs offer.
I could really care less about how “powerful” certain civs were historically.

https://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Factions_in_Total_War:_Rome_II.html

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Look at Rome 2’s factions.
Some of them were really small nations/groups of little consequence to the rest of the world.
And yet they all provide an interesting aspect of gameplay, their local political situation, and their units.

Thats fun faction design.

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Or there is one other possibility (which is of course a VeRy UnLiKeLy OnE): you, and a lot of people who have been soaked in the “MEDIEVAL KNIGHTS AND CASTLES!” stereotype overrepresented by modern media, really know little about conflicts and military history outside Europe.
Just look at how many peoples and political entities were competing with each other in medieval India, and India is larger than the entire Western Europe combined:

That’s natural because as a Chinese I constantly see some Chinese people wondering “why did ancient China had such brilliant tactical and strategic thoughts while the foreigners just knew about swarming their enemies” (pointing at some Hollywood movie or novels like Romance of the Three Kingdoms).
The answer is simple: because they do not know or care about real warfare in other parts of the world and the tactics that were used.
This is exactly what we typically call “narrow-minded”. It does not change if one starts with “no I’m not narrow-minded or Eurocentric” and goes on with “but other parts of the world are not as important as Europe which is solid fact”.

But of course this is VeRy UnLiKeLy.

Medieval England: won a few battles but lost all major wars against French, did almost nothing else.

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Once again the game is made for paying customers and they expect knights and castles plus some flavour from rest of the globe. That’s all there is to it.

If Indians start to buy RTS games than India will get represented more. Its same phenomenon as Hollywood trying to impress Chinese recently because there is now money to be made there.

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“The game focuses more on Europe to attract European customers” and “The game focuses more on Europe because Europe is actually more important than other parts of the world in the middle ages” are two entirely different logic.
You cannot make the game Eurocentric to appeal to European customers, and then claim it is perfectly fine because Europe is actually more important than other parts of the world in the middle ages at the same time.

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Both can be true but only one is behind games focusing on Europe mostly. The financial one.

The financial one is not going to have any impact on the discussion of “whether Europe is actually more important than other parts of the world in the middle ages”, and that was what my post was all about. I didn’t question anything like “you cannot make the game Eurocentric to appeal to European customers”.

Well than ok. I don’t think nobody is denying that Chinese were important thru the history and especially in early middle ages. The debate was more about less advanced or small tribal civilisations around the world.

I want to play with the Hungarians, but maybe i’m baised.

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I would also like that. I think Hungary and Polish-Lithuanian union should be in the game but I am a little biased here since I am from that part of the world.

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And the “small tribal civilizations” that guy denied included Ethiopians and Tamils (Cholas) which were by no means small tribal civilizations.

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I was actually defending Ethiopians just a few posts Higher and I think they are most important sub-Saharan civilisation to have in a game.

But Cholas have a problem that they no longer existed in what is Castle and imperial age of this game.

Not going to lie, one of the reasons aside revisiting the exact same time frame of AOE2 while not innovating that much is the boring, uninteresting civ picks.

Hell, you could even pick different European civs like Swiss or Danes or I don’t know who else if you really have to have tons of Euro civs in the base game.

And saying that Non-Europeans will just pirate the game or that Europeans are only interesting about their own history is just plain wrong (Proof: I’d rather see civs like Songhay being featured for the first time than having to revisit Jean D’Arcs provess or Dschingis Khans conquests (admittedly not European history, but I’d still see another story told, especially considering I’ve seen it already in AOE2)).

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Well if one has to stick to “all civs should exist throughout the time period” (which is already violated because Delhi Sultanate wasn’t there until 13th century) then okay.
And I believe that “rule” would soon be violated if they are planning to add more new civs.

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You may be but proof is in the pudding. Just check that poll up there.

When we are talking personally here I would not pay for DLC featuring just a Cholas and some small north American tribes for example but I would pay for Turks and ERE or Poland for sure.

Yes that situation with Delhi is pushing it but last two ages are more important from gameplay perspective. They would have no comparable technologies to be added in them unless they want to go full fantasy route and game was advertised as historically accurate.

I’m going to skip such a DLC for AOE4 and the next AOE2 DLC if it features again European civs. Hell, even Caucasian civs would be boring if they wouldn’t even come with a new arch set and those are the ones I would probably hate the least to be added right now to AOE2.

It’s fricking ridiculous that such a small area of the world area gets for an arbitrary reason 50% of the civs in almost every Age game if not more.

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