Lets take a look at HRE Holy Roman Empire. It’s an empire that consisted of different Europe people like Germans, French, Italians and even Polish, from dozens of different little Kingdoms.
So why can’t we have a simple Spain/Native alliance as faction?
We can but it seem more weird because American didn’t fight under the spain crown for the most part. And HRE is already a little controversial, so taking as exemple the most controversial “empire” to create an other, a way more, controversial empire… not the best idea imo ^^.
We have Inca empire, why can’t use it as it was.
That’s a good point. I was thinking about Native Americans on North America, but this makes much more sense and puts a whole new idea into perspective.
Because the native populations had no cure against the diseases brought by the Europeans,which were already immunized and for which the Native Americans had never faced…it was a bacterium war…it is as if we were invaded by aliens who bring galactic diseases that we have never faced and to which we would have no cure…
So thousands of Aztecs all died from disease in a 2 hour battle rather than steel and cannon?
Some 90% of their population died due disease in about 3 years. Are you telling me that the loss of a couple battles, losing a couple thousand warriors at most, is a comparable reason as to why the Aztec empire fell?
Clarification: I use hyperbole. It was closer to like a decade, but the point remains largely the same.
I’m saying that even Few thousand extra soldiers wouldn’t have done much in the Aztecs’ favor if only a couple hundred Spanish could beat tens of thousands.
Except… they didn’t? The Spaniards won with very little to do with themselves. The Spanish won because they used the Aztec Empires state of already falling against them, and then had very little fighting to do anyway.
Don’t bother mate. Someone who compares canoe made from log to longships can’t be taken seriously.
Longships ranged from 45 to 75 feet long. Haida canoes ranged from 30 to 70 feet long. How is not an apt comparison?
A typical longship would have a length of roughly 55 feet, a width of 8.5 feet, and a draught of 1.5 feet. That’s almost identical to the typical Haida canoe, only longer by a few feet and the same width and draught.
How is it not a good comparison?
So do you yet again deny that it was a technological disparity but it was diseases and disorganization that caused a few hundred Spanish and a few hundred allies to beat tens of thousands of Aztecs in battle?
This is categorically false. The Aztecs were primarily defeated by other Mesoamerican peoples. The Spanish did a good job of kidnapping and lying their way into a position of leadership as the empire fell. Cortes was essentially Littlefinger from Game of Thrones.
The primary Spanish ally for the military campaigns around the fall of Tenochtitlan were the Tlaxcala. They were independent from the Aztec empire and bitter rivals. They were surrounded on all sides by factions loyal to the Aztecs and were forced into the Flower/Garland Wars, where they would be defeated in ceremonial warfare to be taken as POWs/slaves and sacrificed to Aztec gods.
It is actually really interesting to read up on what happened in Mesoamerica since most popular history just kinda skips over it. The Aztec empire was already in decline and was commonly facing civil wars and uprisings. Since they went through a few different kings, subject states of the empire would withhold help/rebel trying to gain more political capital.
It’s really interesting and very reminiscent of Game of Thrones. Hell, there’s even a Red Wedding equivalent with the massacre at the festival of Tóxcatl, where a large portion of Aztec nobility was slaughtered.
Also, the rest of Mexico was similarly conquered. The Spanish would ally with native people, use them as the main forces militarily, revoke all promises made, and repeat the cycle. While I haven’t bought it yet, this book is supposed to go further into details on it.
This doesn’t help your case. So you’re saying people with lesser technology than Spanish were able to beat the Aztec Hordes?
Your whole framing of this is very weird.
“Aztec Hordes”? Has pretty problematic connotations so I would advise against doing that.
And yes, just 500 Spanish soldiers alone was not going to be enough to destroy the Aztec empire.
The Spanish were only able to do so through supporting local pre-existing conflicts.
The Aztecs, a very oppressive power, weren’t the most popular among their neighbours. Considering the constant pressure of both material and human tribute they imposed on their subjugates.
So essentially what happens is Cortez manages to show up at just a right time to destabilize the Aztec hegemony in the region. He would never have been successful without local support. Spain would not have shovelled more resources had he not succeeded with what little he had.
I don’t think you understand Aztec society. They weren’t a horde at all. They had a complex, city-state based society and had better technology than Europeans in some areas (specifically: agriculture).
Also, what case? I’m not making an argument here other than what I said above. You misrepresented the past and I just wanted to correct it.
Yes great food production.
Exactly so they can be balanced by making a lot of weaker low armoured units. (as in horde)
Except their armor was as proficient as the Spanish? The Spanish typically got rid of their armor in favor for the Aztecs’. Just because it wasn’t metal, doesn’t mean it wasn’t also effective at its job. And neither set of armor was going to protect against firearms.
Why go for horde when they had elite military societies? Jaguar and Eagle are pretty well known, but there were also the Otomies (Otontin) and The Shorn Ones. Expensive and elite infantry would make sense.
There could be a horde like function with yaoquizqueh, or low level warriors that were commoners. Low value unit, but if it gets a kill (as an approximation for a capture) then it promotes to a better unit.
Yeah. Because it was as effective against Aztec weapons as steel armor and was lighter. But it wasn’t better than what spanish forces had and it wasn’t effecive against their weapons.
Well they were the force that made that possible. Without those soldiers Tlaxla could only dream about taking Tenochtitlan. Whole Strategy and tactics used in siege were devised by Spanish forces and were tailored to maximize their effectivness. They did everything they could to achive that. Getting allies, destabilizing Aztec empire, cutting them off from tributaries.
Yeah they weren’t alone but they were the most important force in all of what happened there be that political side or military one
No it’s not. You are comparing construction which biggest achievement was crossing 60 miles of straight with construction that was able to cross hundreds of miles of open sea. It’s nowhere near identical. Width alone changes a lot in how ship sails.
But that’s the point Aztec armour was enough vs Aztec weapons. Spanish sword would stab thru Aztec cotton armour without difficulties (not even talking about Spanish crossbows guns lances etc) while no Aztec weapon could go thru breastplate. Sometimes heavy American bows could pierce weaker mail some Spanish had in close range but that’s about it.
Actually good quality breastplate could stop harquebuses round especially at distance that’s why heavy musket was introduced. But its all mute point since Indians got no guns so…
Sure elite units would be nice but they should be still subpar to armoured Eurasians.
