[POLL] Should garrisoned arrow mechanics change to buff skirmisher, Archer, and late-game villager arrow count?

Most pierce-damage units add arrows based on their dps to garrisoned structures. Add up arrow damage (properly calculating secondary arrows since a 2021 DE patch), divide by reload interval to get dps, and divide total dps of all garrisoned units by the dps of the structure’s secondary arrow.

Villagers and Teutonic infantry with Crenellations currently get credited for 2.5 dps, or one 5-damage arrow in 2 sec, which is a TC or Watch Tower without upgrades.

Proposed changes:

  1. Buff to villagers: give villagers credit for arrow upgrades, so a villager from a civilization with Bracer and Chemistry researched adds one arrow to a TC that also has Bracer and Chemistry. Instead of 10 villagers in a TC adding 5 arrows (rounding 5*10 = 50 down to (5 arrows * 9 damage) = 45), they would add 10 arrows.

Consequence: defense against raids is a little better in late game; idling farmers is a little less effective because garrisoned TCs better at killing raiders; games could last longer. But it still takes 9 volleys of 10 arrows to kill a fully-upgraded paladin.

  1. Changing damage calculations to buff skirmishers and Feudal-age Archers: Calculate dps as maximum(damage per hit, TC arrow damage) / (reload period). Result: feudal-age Archers add 1 arrow to Watch Towers and TCs (up from 0.83 arrows with Fletching), while Skirmishers with Fletching add max(2+1, 5+1)/3 = 2 dps, or 2/3 arrows, so 5 skirmishers in a tower would add 3 arrows (up from current 1 arrow).

  2. Make Celt unique technology Stronghold not reduce the number of arrows fired per volley: Stronghold makes towers and castles fire 33% faster, which alters their damage calculation for number of extra arrows: one extra arrow also requires 33% more dps of garrisoned units. Change it so the number of extra arrows doesn’t change. (Whether for this technology specifically, by providing this extra benefit, or for all effects such as scenario triggers or data mods that increase building attack speed.) Extra arrows already have the disadvantage of delaying the start of the next volley of arrows, reducing the marginal benefit of each garrisoned unit even without overkill from a targetted unit dying while many arrows are in flight.

  3. Buff damage calculation for Teutonic infantry with Crenellations: currently these get 2.5 dps credit, same as villagers. 20 Teutonic Knights with crenellations garrisoned in a Teutonic castle will add 7 extra arrows; if ungarrisoned, these units could do (17+4)*20 = 420 damage every 2 seconds, but instead they add 98 damage of arrows every 2.5 seconds or so. If we gave Teutonic infantry full credit for their dps, Teutonic Knights would add 10.5 dps, while even Chu Ko Nu only add about 9.2 dps, so it may be best to just keep their damage the same as a villager. Since Teutons lack Bracer, that would be 4 dps with full upgrades (up from 2.5 dps current).

Should garrisoned arrow calculations be changed?

  • Keep it how it is
  • Buff villagers, but not skirmishers, Archers, or Strongholds
  • Buff villagers, skirmishers and Archers, but not Strongholds
  • Buff villagers, skirmishers, Archers, and Strongholds
  • Buff villagers, skirmishers, Archers, Strongholds, and Teutonic infantry with Crenellations
0 voters
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I don’t see my preferred option - Buff Stronghold.

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An error occurred: You cannot change a poll after the first 180 minutes.

Do people who prefer not to change villagers just think that the game shouldn’t change excessively, or would they really prefer to change to the current mechanics if the game was already in the proposed state?

I just don’t see the benefit of mechanics that make it so a TC with (say) six villagers garrisoned kills a Scout Cavalry in three volleys in the Dark Age, but a post-Imperial TC with all upgrades and the same six villagers garrisoned kills a fully-upgraded Hussar in 11 volleys, because each volley is now just 3 arrows.

(And if it’s one of the 8 civs that lack Bracer and isn’t Malians with Tigui, then it still fires just 3 arrows but takes 16 volleys to kill the Hussar.)

Even a post-Imperial Teutonic Scout Cavalry could survive 7 volleys.

Let’s see: a Savar, with as much pierce armor as an Elite Tarkan but a lot better attack and firing rate, takes 1 damage per arrow, so 10 villagers garrisoned do 5 damage per volley and take more than 70 seconds to kill the Savar. During this time, assuming attacks every 2 seconds (1.8 attack speed + walking time), the Savar could kill 11 villagers who didn’t garrison in the TC, and the 10 idle (garrisoned) villagers didn’t gather 280 food that they would have normally gathered. (But at least the farms were still recharging, so they would receive a slight gather rate boost after ungarrisoning until 10 extra food per farm has been collected.)

With proposed change, it would only take half the time to kill the Savar.

Bengali Elite Elephant Archer, with 2+6 pierce armor: takes over 125 sec to die (60 volleys), during which time it can shoot ~74 arrows that could kill 14 villagers, and the villagers in the TC lose out on gathering 500 food. This is current mechanics.

I’d say former. But your calculation next is really making me think.

If an FU Hussar started to get killed in 3 volleys of 6 garrison villagers, I’ll for sure ask the mechanics to be changed. There is no way you can finish a game off if that was the case. Especially when gold ran out.

Perhaps. I think there’s something to be said for killing TCs with siege (rams, trebuchets). And we do often see games end in Feudal or Castle before any siege comes out, even if TC hasn’t died.

But with the proposed change, those six villagers would still take six volleys, up from three against the Dark Age scout. If it’s five hussars running around, that’s 30 volleys, or over a minute, if all arrows hit their intended target.

With current mechanics, that would be over two minutes to kill the 5 hussars.

As I said in the first post and as you said in this comment, games might take longer with this change. But currently, as with the examples given, it’s literally not efficient for villagers to garrison if not all villagers can fit, because you suffer the same losses and the cost of units killed is less than opportunity cost. Against a paladin, current mechanics: 10 villagers add 5 arrows, 10 damage per volley, 18 volleys or over 36 seconds (I believe 10 arrows slow fire rate to every 3 sec so 5 arrows would be 2.5 sec per volley, 45 sec to kill paladin). Opportunity cost of 360 villager seconds is 144 food (180 food if reload time becomes 2.5), more than the cost of the paladin. So optimally, you would just send some units there and continue farming while the paladin kills farmers.

Against Turkish or Tatar hussar: 10 volleys, 200 or 250 villager-seconds has a cost of 80 or 100 food, so again better not to garrison if not all villagers can fit.

things might have been clearer if you had made 4 different yes/no polls.

To me only strongholds is a no-brainer. That’s a UT that should have all the value it can get.

I’m in favor of buffing defensive structures in late game. But I don’t think I’ll go with villager garrison mechanics buff. Celts stronghold UT can be a generic tech, only the faster firing part. And a smaller effect of Tigui can also be added.

Should Celt unique tech Stronghold be changed so it does not reduce the number of secondary arrows added to each volley by garrisoned units?

  • Yes
  • No
0 voters

(Can’t edit original post anymore)

Are you proposing that Stronghold add extra arrows to TCs (like Tigui), to towers (like Yasama), to Castles, or to more than one of these? I’m hesitant to suggest that it duplicate the functionality of either of those other techs.

I guess we now have some duplication with Yeomen (it’s YO-men, T90!) and Svan Towers both increasing tower damage by +2 in addition to other effects, but Stronghold already has two effects and if it’s not strong enough, should probably just buff those existing effects (or reduce its cost).

One more analysis of opportunity cost: since arrow upgrades reduce the number of arrows fired, they’re good when TCs are getting raided by cavalry in Feudal or Castle age (or by Serjeants in a Youpudding rush), but they’re arguably bad in tower wars or when shooting at rams. (Guard towers with Bodkin do 6 damage to Watch Towers with 8 pierce armor, but 4 garrisoned villagers will only add 2 arrows = 12 damage, while 4 garrisoned villagers in a Watch Tower without upgrades shoot 4 extra arrows = 20 damage.)

So, we take best case of a TC without arrow upgrades shooting at a Battering Ram. We also simplify by saying that extra arrows don’t slow the rate of fire, because I’m not confident on exactly how much it’s slowed. So, 10 villagers adding 10 arrows, killing the battering ram in 18 volleys, 360 villager-seconds lost. Without any eco upgrades, that’s about 120 resources not collected (20/min): battering ram costs 235. It is efficient to kill the ram (except maybe if you look at farm cost and lumberjack upgrades, and get something like 10.7 villagers on wood at 25 W/min to get 160 wood, and 6 villagers on gold for 75 gold, total cost 17*50 = 850 food, while 10 villagers + 10 farms costs 1100 resources).

Killing a siege ram that is on no-attack stance so building HP upgrades don’t matter, if TC has 5+4 attack: 54 volleys of 5 arrows from 10 garrisoned villagers, 108 sec, 1080 idle villager-seconds. 24 food/min with Handcart, opportunity cost 432 food.

I don’t like current mechanics because it leads to situations where you would prefer NOT to get a technology even if it’s free. But it isn’t the most important.

I’m proposing that Stronghold become a generic tech that increases fire rate of tower, castle and maybe tc by 25%.

Or a new tech that will give TC 2 or 3 more arrows, a smaller version of Tigui UT. I’d prefer the previous one.

They may get a new UT more focused on active Infantry play. I truly believe after Persians getting a rework, Celts is the one needs most impactful changes among AOK civs.

(Moved out of edit) didn’t properly read what you said about making it a generic tech. So would the Celt tech just be healing near castles?

If you want to buff defensive structures, one step could be making Arrowslits give +3 to the entire tower-line, not +1 to Watch Towers, +2 to Guard Towers, and +3 to Keeps.

I think polls are nice so I will make some more polls.

Should the faster-firing effect from Celt tech Stronghold be made a generic tech, and Celts given something else or their unique tech just provide the healing effect at a cheaper cost?

  • Give faster-firing fortifications tech to all civilizations
  • Give faster-firing fortifications tech to limited civs
  • Celts keep faster-firing fortifications as unique tech
0 voters

Should Arrowslits be changed to give +3 to Watch Towers, Guard Towers, and Keeps instead of staggered +1/+2/+3?

  • Yes
  • No
0 voters

It doesn’t make any difference. Watch tower in Imperial Age is wasting resource. And Guard Tower with 1 additional attack is still nothing compared to Keep.

It’s true that a paladin can solo a Watch Tower with Murder Holes; the tower’s damage output can basically be ignored. But the HP per stone is actually higher for a Watch Tower than for a Castle without Hoardings. So if you just think of a tower as a place for archers to garrison, and you actually use 7 villagers to repair a tower that’s being attacked by a trebuchet the same as you would a castle, then it could be useful.

Like, if a watch tower is the only way to deny enemy access to a gold or stone, because you don’t have time to kill a castle overlooking it but you can build a tower that ranges the gold/stone.

Maybe the primary effect of Svan Towers should be halving the cost of towers. That’s the effect that my version of the tech had. The other stuff can still be present, but I feel like Keeps with 17 attack and pass-through damage is a bit much. So they can be weaker overall, but much cheaper, and still keep the pass-through damage.

Halving the cost of towers also fits thematically with the name of the tech, as Svaneti is well-known for its sheer number of towers. So a tech improving a Georgian player’s ability to build lots of towers is not only historically accurate, but very flavorful.

I was a little amazed to see from SotL’s preview that the pass-through damage seemed to do 100% to all targets. Poor scorpions; not only mangonels and chakrams have a better mechanic, but also towers.

But I also supported the change from Yasama giving Japanese Keeps three extra arrows with 7+4 damage (+12 vs paladin) because Arrowslits didn’t affect secondary arrows, to two arrows with 8+7 damage (+16 vs paladin).

Maybe they will change it, perhaps to what you suggest. They did remove the duplication of Malay and Italian fishing ship discount. But I don’t think it will be game-breaking at release (just compare to siege onagers); I honestly doubt they’ll change anything before release with all the pre-orders.

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