# (POLL) Should the GRENADIERS use a musket as their weapon? **URL:** \ **Category:** III - Discussion\ **Created:** [September 23, 2023, 8:45pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815 "2023-09-23T20:45:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![TheClaymore2004](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/theclaymore2004/32/132430_2.png) [@TheClaymore2004](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/TheClaymore2004)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 11:12pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/125 "2023-10-09T23:12:17Z")
RR can quickly spiral into OP realms so I’d stray away from it. Although if you had a civ who had a 10% rr card I don’t think that’d be to bad. ---
**Author:** ![Josh1Axel](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/josh1axel/32/29653_2.png) [@Josh1Axel](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Josh1Axel)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 11:28pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/126 "2023-10-09T23:28:58Z")
> [@JiMMy12013](#): > > He does use the strelet axe when attacking in melee. I gave him the shovel so he wouldn´t look like a combat unit. I understand. As a personal note, I believe the sappers would look more menacing with an axe, that’s all 😅 > [@JiMMy12013](#): > > By how much? I almost feel that adding range resist would be too much and my thought is that they should be a defense versus charges. Maybe a 30% boost would work. Unlike hand infantry, grenadiers and musketeers do not have the “Cover mode” stance (which gives this infantry the “meat shield” function). As I mentioned, giving grenadiers a speed of 3.5 could be considered for balance reasons. PS: Isn’t it time to change this icon? I mean, clearly, the unit shown in the image is a musketeer, so it could be confusing 😆 ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/9/7/970db3ca3ff759d8516ea93108211ff4cf7654d5.png) ---
**Author:** ![TheClaymore2004](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/theclaymore2004/32/132430_2.png) [@TheClaymore2004](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/TheClaymore2004)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 11:44pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/127 "2023-10-09T23:44:07Z")
Even with 3.5 speed 30% rr would be crazy. Opponents would be forced to build cannons for a quick defense if you’re attacking their base…that’s a thing many civs can’t do. ---
**Author:** ![SirBarnzy1](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/sirbarnzy1/32/130346_2.png) [@SirBarnzy1](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SirBarnzy1)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 12:08am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/128 "2023-10-10T00:08:21Z")
> [@Josh1Axel](#): > > he sapper is great, although as a suggestion, could he be equipped with an axe? Or with an axe strapped to his backpack, or have him welding his axe and have a sappers shovel strapped to the backpack (any other Sapper’s tools attached to his person, a bonus!). Basically he still needs to look like he has lots of utility than just as an all-out axe-man 😆 ---
**Author:** ![coffeeco01](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/coffeeco01/32/29258_2.png) [@coffeeco01](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/coffeeco01)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 11:11am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/129 "2023-10-10T11:11:32Z")
of note that if you do this to the grenadier it probably cannot be tagged as grenade trooper( or would require some shadow teching) like the soldado since that would mean it gains splash damage on its ranged attack and would basically make it murder everything , even if it has lower attack per pop ---
**Author:** ![Kingfisher1787](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/kingfisher1787/32/142926_2.png) [@Kingfisher1787](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Kingfisher1787)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 11:27am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/130 "2023-10-10T11:27:43Z")
Why don’t we just leave grens as they are but let them build certain buildings? It would be a buff, and would give them a definitive use as a military support unit ---
**Author:** ![Jonasnee8581](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jonasnee8581/32/72521_2.png) [@Jonasnee8581](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Jonasnee8581)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 11:30am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/131 "2023-10-10T11:30:57Z")
so, while idea number 2 basically seems to be my suggestion i must admit i never viewed it as something to apply to basic grenadiers, for me it was always suppose to be the basis of a unique unit and not to replace an already established unit. are current grenadiers historically accurate? no, but they are gameplay interesting. ---
**Author:** ![TheClaymore2004](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/theclaymore2004/32/132430_2.png) [@TheClaymore2004](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/TheClaymore2004)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 1:16pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/132 "2023-10-10T13:16:31Z")
The way jimmy has made it, sappers would basically do what grens do now, at least after sending the grenade launcher card. ---
**Author:** ![JiMMy12013](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jimmy12013/32/158778_2.png) [@JiMMy12013](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/JiMMy12013)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 1:21pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/133 "2023-10-10T13:21:44Z")
Yeah that is what I did with the grenadiers above. They are still grenade troopers but I changed what incendiary grenades do. I think it is just an oversight on the developers side as the tech is to increase the aoe of all attacks and as og grenadiers only used grenades that was ok. When they introduced soldados it ruined that. ---
**Author:** ![coffeeco01](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/coffeeco01/32/29258_2.png) [@coffeeco01](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/coffeeco01)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 5:49am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/134 "2023-10-11T05:49:19Z")
> [@JiMMy12013](#): > > I think it is just an oversight on the developers side as the tech is to increase the aoe of all I don’t think its an oversight since on release the the soldado only gained a 0.5 aoe instead of the intended 1, which required a deliberate shadow tech to achieve. they knew about this and designed a nerf built in. its basically the only way for soldado to be a viable unit lategame else their stats not that good edit: units with splash damage also need a hardcoded damage cap so its definitely deliberate ---
**Author:** ![JiMMy12013](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jimmy12013/32/158778_2.png) [@JiMMy12013](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/JiMMy12013)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 1:04pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/135 "2023-10-11T13:04:20Z")
That is true, then I dislike the fact they get the aoe on their range even more. What, they upgrade to shotguns? ---
**Author:** ![coffeeco01](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/coffeeco01/32/29258_2.png) [@coffeeco01](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/coffeeco01)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/136 "2023-10-11T15:30:56Z")
look at the akan musketeer, basically a shotgun ---
**Author:** ![SirBarnzy1](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/sirbarnzy1/32/130346_2.png) [@SirBarnzy1](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SirBarnzy1)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 7:20pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/137 "2023-10-11T19:20:31Z")
> [@JiMMy12013](#): > > That is true, then I dislike the fact they get the aoe on their range even more. What, they upgrade to shotguns? I mean you could get away by saying they’ve loaded their muskets with swan shot which is your musket-size grape shot, but it still doesn’t sit well with me! I’m sure if there was ever a musket-wielding, proper grenadier, the Devs could think with it to ensure its a normal musket ball… ---
**Author:** ![Josh1Axel](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/josh1axel/32/29653_2.png) [@Josh1Axel](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Josh1Axel)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 10:30pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/138 "2023-10-13T22:30:11Z")
> [@TheClaymore2004](#): > > Even with 3.5 speed 30% rr would be crazy. Opponents would be forced to build cannons for a quick defense if you’re attacking their base…that’s a thing many civs can’t do. Question for everyone: I remember that the Maceman initially had melee resistance, but it was later changed to ranged resistance. In retrospect, this change was something positive since a Maceman is already powerful in melee combat. Perhaps the same could be applied to the “Line Grenadier” (only giving them ranged resistance), which would make them powerful but not invulnerable in melee combat. ---
**Author:** ![Notonline1](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/notonline1/32/146888_2.png) [@Notonline1](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Notonline1)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 8:07am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/139 "2023-10-14T08:07:07Z")
Macemen are less problematic because their range is 1. The whole trinity is range, damage hp afaik. Comparing the macemen to the gren is whilest not entirely off, clearly not the choice, that’d be the huaraca. Which incidentally imo is a better gren due to range. ---
**Author:** ![JiMMy12013](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jimmy12013/32/158778_2.png) [@JiMMy12013](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/JiMMy12013)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 6:25pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/140 "2023-10-16T18:25:26Z")
Ok, I’m willing to accept this as leaning to heavily into the historical side of things as well as being told this is a very bad idea but here it goes: ![Humbaraci](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/1/4/14f0e3e2e1d8c5b3fb6b348b9657c2b6aa59a56c.png) ![JanGren](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/d/a/da119aafb37feab49238bae7a9263fe7f9a98deb.png) I wanted to see if the Ottoman army used grenadiers the same as European armies and it didn’t seem to be the case. And so it started me thinking about how the Humbaraci would work. Researching on a very reliable source 😉, the Humbaraci were more of artillery crew than actual infantry units. So the role of the European grenadier doesn’t fit. So I was thinking of bringing them back to their original state. It also seemed like they were sappers, so allowed them to be have the building ability of the Sapper unit above but they are able to build a little better than the Sappers. Battlefield Construction allows Humbaraci to build Barracks, Stables, and Artillery Depots sooner(Age5). So did they have grenades on the front lines? Yes the Ottomans were some of the last armies to use grenades in the midst of battles. I found the concept that Janissaries carried grenades and so we have the above ability. Sending Hand Mortar card allows Janissaries to have the Battle Buster ability as well as changing their siege damage from torch throwing to grenades. They are also affected by Incendiary Grenades after Hand Mortars are sent The ability may need a damage buff but I wanted to cut it in half compared to the original ability as Janissaries are only 1 pop. So what do you think? Hot or Not ---
**Author:** ![TheClaymore2004](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/theclaymore2004/32/132430_2.png) [@TheClaymore2004](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/TheClaymore2004)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 6:31pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/141 "2023-10-16T18:31:54Z")
Hot but ottos don’t need more LOL ---
**Author:** ![JiMMy12013](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jimmy12013/32/158778_2.png) [@JiMMy12013](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/JiMMy12013)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/142 "2023-10-16T18:35:06Z")
That is probably true but would you leave them out of the above changes for grenadiers? ---
**Author:** ![Josh1Axel](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/josh1axel/32/29653_2.png) [@Josh1Axel](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Josh1Axel)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/143 "2023-10-16T20:34:52Z")
> [@Notonline](#): > > Macemen are less problematic because their range is 1. The whole trinity is range, damage hp afaik. > > Comparing the macemen to the gren is whilest not entirely off, clearly not the choice, that’d be the huaraca. Which incidentally imo is a better gren due to range. Interesting, I came up with the idea based on this video: [![](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/1/3/133b5e9094ec3f8a36a57515b02e6cbeadae0c9c.jpeg "Age of Empires 3 Definitive Edition - Macemen vs Rodeleros") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyvuKzwZ1PQ) As you can see, the rodeleros defeated the macemen solely due to “cost-effectiveness.” It was an epic battle, and the macemen put up a great fight. Nevertheless, the rodeleros won because of cost-effectiveness. The macemen appear powerful but not invincible. I would like to replicate this concept for a hypothetical “line grenadier” unit. > [@JiMMy12013](#): > > Ok, I’m willing to accept this as leaning to heavily into the historical side of things as well as being told this is a very bad idea but here it goes: > ![Humbaraci](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/1/4/14f0e3e2e1d8c5b3fb6b348b9657c2b6aa59a56c.png) > ![JanGren](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/d/a/da119aafb37feab49238bae7a9263fe7f9a98deb.png) > > I wanted to see if the Ottoman army used grenadiers the same as European armies and it didn’t seem to be the case. And so it started me thinking about how the Humbaraci would work. Researching on a very reliable source 😉, the Humbaraci were more of artillery crew than actual infantry units. So the role of the European grenadier doesn’t fit. So I was thinking of bringing them back to their original state. It also seemed like they were sappers, so allowed them to be have the building ability of the Sapper unit above but they are able to build a little better than the Sappers. Battlefield Construction allows Humbaraci to build Barracks, Stables, and Artillery Depots sooner(Age5). > > So did they have grenades on the front lines? Yes the Ottomans were some of the last armies to use grenades in the midst of battles. I found the concept that Janissaries carried grenades and so we have the above ability. Sending Hand Mortar card allows Janissaries to have the Battle Buster ability as well as changing their siege damage from torch throwing to grenades. They are also affected by Incendiary Grenades after Hand Mortars are sent The ability may need a damage buff but I wanted to cut it in half compared to the original ability as Janissaries are only 1 pop. > > So what do you think? Hot or Not The idea is intriguing; the Ottomans were the dominant power for many centuries within the AoE 3 timeframe. In my opinion, the Ottoman civilization in AoE 3 could serve as a foundation for including other Middle Eastern civilizations in the game. So, from my perspective, you have a green light to make the necessary historical changes; I’ve always believed that “art imitates life” 😄 ---
**Author:** ![TheClaymore2004](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/theclaymore2004/32/132430_2.png) [@TheClaymore2004](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/TheClaymore2004)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 10:03pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815/144 "2023-10-16T22:03:59Z")
You might could give them some kind of grenade attack. But I definitely wouldn’t give them the same kind of charged abilities others civs 2 pop units have. [Previous page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815.md?page=6) [Next page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/poll-should-the-grenadiers-use-a-musket-as-their-weapon/239815.md?page=8)