(POLL) Should the GRENADIERS use a musket as their weapon?

Yes.

I think the ‘Line Grenadiers’ shipment should change them from purely grenade-throwing artillery-light units to ‘elite’ musketeers with great siege.

The ‘current’ Grenadiers should be tougher and more resistant to ranged (even adding a tiny Artillery resist) than before, making them an attractive option as a siege infantry niche. Standard Grenadiers could even have as @Moonshadow7475 suggested - more artillery-like tagging.

The Line Grenadiers shipment now enables training from the Barracks and changes Grenadiers to Line Grenadiers (including pre-existing units) aesthetically (they carry a musket now along with a grenade pouch) and with their name.

Line Grenadiers themselves lose the pure grenade-throwing and more artillery-based resistance in favour of being super-musketeers with great grenade-based siege. They also gain a ‘Grenade Throw’ auto-ability to throw a grenade in regular combat after a cooldown. The upgrade moves from pure grenade-throwing, siege units into elite Musketeers with grenade siege. Soldados would be considered not quite as powerful as them.

Standard Muskets/equivs will still form the main body for most Euros due to pop space and resources (which could even be slightly more than the standard Grenadier). As Line Grenadiers were considered elite soldiers in the time, they could even have build limits should they be too powerful (though I’d rather avoid build limits with pop/resource requirements).

Basically:

Grenadiers - changed to be much tougher, but still keeping to their role of essentially cheap early artillery. Tagging/Resists to be changed to resonate with their role of pure grenade-throwing ‘light artillery’.

Line Grenadiers - a ‘replacement’ shipment that makes them into much more flexible Musketeers with grenade siege, at a cost of more resources and Heavy Infantry tagging.

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Grenediers aren’t exactly “countered” but light infantry and cannons, especially after their grenade launcher card—yes those things do fine against them, but once in range your grenediers will destroy them. Pikemen also aren’t really better bs buildings after that card because, unlike pike, you can hit and run buildings—this allows you to quickly destroy towns.
P.s. they also do well vs ranged cav.

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Yes after the Launcher card they might outperform Pikeman but not in Commerce Age.

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yeah lets get more s tier muskgrens that counter everything but 1 thing, skirms, with excessive micro because the prior year of spanish soldados and giant grens being uber busted left a hole in the minds of people who clearly want to be unpunished for 1-2 unit comps.

hybrid units in any rts are always tricky as they either usually are busted by being a 2 in 1 unit, or often neglectyed or niche due to 2 other units combined filling their role better. Grens inm aoe3 are as is niche: even chadbaraci are often overlooked for abus/other unit for building seige. The thing is tho, a unit that beats cav AND other heavy infantry AND seige damage to better kill artillery and buildings is going to be broken. fundamentally by design. I’m sure someone will try the “but real grenadierism hasnt be tried yet” arguement while ignoring from release to now the consistent issues of making these units kill their stuff, while ignoring that many games and civs can and will use grens. russia, brits, swedes in particular, to catch a sim city enjoyer off guard.

I’m trying to get people to understand while i get the appeal of the oft busted and certainly historically problematic soldado is there, the reality of adding more of this unit to civs balanced without it is probably more trouble than its worth. just as in dopps, mantlets, schiavonne, and others niche isnt bad its just grens are made for a rare in this meta scenario- a infrastructure and heavy infantry age2 player. use them vs an inca spear kancha bot and youll realize these guys arent bad.

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My suggestion would be to basically make them Zouave but with good siege and maybe a multi vs cannon. They’d be like a 2 pop minutemen but still have the Heavy infantry tag.

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Zouave that are massable is terrifying tbh

Musk have high dps and good seige, grens have less dps but better vs heavy inf and better seige. As is they have a niche

Imho giving civs some sort of inf shipment of what you said might be better to both allow a powerful unit exist that can be more like historical elite regiments of grens sent to open up holes in enemy lines while being limited to not allow spam. Just my knee jerk response. Lets you have these unots feel historical while putting brakes on their spammable possibilites which is what broke giant grens

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Massable Zouaves I think wouldn’t be much of a problem if they had the Heavy Infantry tag.
P.S. Soldadoes should just be slower imo.

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For me personally, I don’t want to see Grenadiers modified from their base status because the game starts out in the 1500s. I understand that people really like the Napoleonic era but if age 2 Grenadiers are changed to reflect that later period it’ll be pretty incongruous alongside Pikemen and Crossbowmen. People who threw grenades as their primary arm (rather than the musket) were called “Grenadiers” for hundreds of years throughout Europe and I like that that is reflected in this game.

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Hello everyone, I’m going to share my opinion on this matter. I want to emphasize that this is just my personal opinion, and it’s perfectly fine if you choose to ignore it. However, for those interested in my “wall of text,” I recommend listening to the following soundtracks while reading:

From what I’m deducing:

  • Grenadiers have had a design flaw since their introduction in AoE 3 in 2005.
  • Although possible “reworks” for this unit have been discussed for 18 years, no convincing alternative has been presented so far. Additionally, a significant number of players may oppose the idea of major changes to the grenadier, as they have been playing with this unit the same way for 18 years.
  • The grenadiers presented in AoE 3 are not only historically inaccurate but also have technical and mechanical issues, such as their category, function, and effectiveness against other units.

I know I’ll look like this image as I add some historical and gameplay concepts, but the truth is, I consider the Grenadiers as one of the “representative military units of humanity,” just like the Macedonian phalanx, the medieval European knight, the Roman legionary, the stormtrooper, among many others. These iconic units often become symbols of specific eras and styles of combat, making them memorable and significant in both history and popular culture.

Grenadier are an iconic military unit that has left an indelible mark on the history and culture of many nations. Although their role on the battlefield has evolved over the years, their legacy endures in the form of honor guards at royal palaces and iconic buildings around the world.

These units have their roots in the military history of various countries and have been used to protect royalty, represent the armed forces, and uphold ceremonial traditions.

Personally, I don’t like the implementation of “grenade launchers” in AoE 3 because in the game, they have a more fictional and less historically accurate background:

Primitive grenade launchers (Hand mortar) used in the 16th to 19th centuries were rudimentary firearms designed to launch explosive grenades at short distances, but they weren’t widespread due to their technical and tactical limitations. They were less precise, had limited range, and required a dangerous manual process to load and fire. Furthermore, grenade production was limited, and as firearms technology advanced, more effective rifles and muskets with superior range, accuracy, and firepower emerged.

image

The practice of using “tall and strong” soldiers as grenadiers dates back to the 17th century, with the early grenadiers being infantrymen selected for their physical strength and grenade-throwing abilities. Given that hand grenades of that era were relatively heavy and required strong and precise throws, recruiting robust soldiers for this role was common practice. These grenadiers were known for their ability to throw grenades over longer distances and with greater accuracy than their counterparts. Their training included specific practices for grenade handling and use in combat. While the role of grenadiers evolved over time, and they became more versatile, the tradition of recruiting physically strong soldiers skilled in grenade usage continued throughout military history, making grenadiers an iconic unit in many armies well into the 19th century and beyond.

Another aspect of the grenadier that I dislike (and probably many other players as well) is that the grenadier is terrible in melee combat (despite wielding two swords). Historically, Grenadiers excelled in melee combat, often preferring that style of fighting. So far, the unit that has best represented the grenadier has been the Mexican “Soldier.”

So far, the best option for the Grenadier that I’ve seen is the rework of the “Line Grenadiers” card:

This card should be a powerful one, and all European nations should have access to it (such as the Spanish, for example). This card should cost resources, and in addition to allowing the creation of Grenadiers in barracks, it should transform Grenadiers into “Line Grenadiers” armed with muskets. The use of this card should be voluntary and costly, as the “Line Grenadier” should be superior to the regular Grenadier.

The Line Grenadier should be more expensive than the regular Grenadier, possess two types of resistance (vs. ranged and vs. melee), and have melee bonuses against cavalry and infantry. They should be slower than Musketeers and deal less damage with muskets compared to two Musketeers.

This would make the “Line Grenadiers” more expensive, slower, and more powerful than the “Mexican Soldier,” available from Age III. Line Grenadiers will only use grenades against buildings, and they will also have the special ability “throw grenades against units” with a 45 second cooldown.

Personal suggestion: Remove the grenade launchers; I believe they harm historical immersion (and they are aesthetically unappealing). Instead, replace this card with “Light Grenades” to increase the grenade throwing distance and add an additional cinematic for grenade throwing in the game to show that this card is being used.

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PS: Yes, I am aware that “Line Grenadiers” will also benefit from Musketeer upgrades, which means civilizations like the British could have powerful Line Grenadiers. But isn’t that historically accurate? :laughing:

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Seems like it’d just be an op unit😅 unless it was like 3 pop or something.

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Not necessarily, one of the biggest weaknesses of the “Line Grenadiers” would be their slowness. They would be the AoE 3 version of the “Teutonic Knight.” Only an experienced player would know how to use powerful and slow units effectively in a match (as they also slow down the rest of the army accompanying them). Furthermore, this is historically accurate; many historians consider that Napoleon reduced the effectiveness of his army due to the slowness in maneuvering his “Old Guard” (which were grenadiers). For example, at the Battle of Borodino, Napoleon refused to send the Old Guard for a decisive blow despite the pleas of his marshals. Many historians consider this lack of action as one of the main reasons why Napoleon had to retreat from Russia.

*This also implies that the Line Grenadier, despite their resistances, would be vulnerable to skirmisher and artillery. They would also be too difficult to withdraw from a lost battle (as in real history).

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So you would make them like 3.8 speed? I could see that possibly working out. But then they might be too easily countered by longer ranged unit. But I’m not sure.

Also this doesn’t really have to do with the game, but why is this an example of them being slow, and not just bad strategy by Nepolean?

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The use of a powerful, expensive, yet slow unit requires a lot of strategy and micro-management. If a player tries to counter Line Grenadiers with skirmishers, it only takes a small mistake for the Line Grenadiers to launch their powerful grenades at the skirmishers and annihilate them.
Usually, cavalry annihilates artillery, but against Line Grenadiers, cavalry will be less effective. Therefore, Line Grenadiers should not be accompanied by pikemen, halberdiers, or dragoons to defend against cavalry.

Napoleon, despite his talent, largely adhered to the military tactics of his era. During the Napoleonic Wars and in general during periods when linear tactics were prevalent, elite troops like the Grenadiers were primarily reserved for critical situations. This historical context justifies the slowness of Line Grenadiers in the game, as it reflects the bureaucratic procedures and careful considerations that often accompanied the deployment of these elite soldiers, even in the heat of battle.

I like what you are saying about Grenadiers beings special elite infantry, recognisable as symbols of the time and the style of warfare in and of themselves. Maybe they should be changed into card only units like the Sipahi? That way they could be buffed up to be powerful muskteers without the problems that come from massing them. And it’s not like anyone would be too annoyed about not being able to train them anymore.

The French kind of already have this with their special Old Guard units, and I personally love them. It’s very fun to have a section of Old Guards waiting in reserve until the decisive moment to call in…

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Honestly would it be a bad idea if grens got a musket when they go to guard?

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What if Grenadier work the same function as Mansabdar unit
:eyes:
:point_right: :point_left:

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sorry guys, grens as muskets just give dutch to much new advantage and with either overshadow or be overshadowed by other standard muskets. grens as skirms gives British a very strong new tool to work with and get overshadowed for everyone else except maybe russia. Grens as artillery are always going to be inferior to true artillery (range being the bluntest limiting factor). There’s no way to make the unit fit in the counter system and be unique without stepping on another unit’s toes, being unusable or redundant, or making it broken. Sorry everyone

5 Likes

Consistent with what I’ve said in the past, I would like grenadiers to be able to use a musket with a bayonet, and throwing grenades to be a special skill (similar to the explorers’ crackshoot), but with the exception of the grenade attack, the unit would not have multipliers.

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That’s why i stated you do them as a zouve type unit. One that can’t replace skirms or musks.

Granted they’d have to lower the ranged resist and range probably to something along the line of 14.

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