That is not true. Thee biggest extent of conquest the Ottomans did, was in North Africa.
Conquering land in Europe, also does not make you European.
The Ottomans never were European, their very culture was anti-european.
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In my opinion, Ottomans are more European than Asian. They were always more involved in European Politics and basically adapted the Greek-Anatolian Culture with some modifications. Just give a google search to the type of dresses the Turkish people wear.
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Ottomans are by religion, customes and culture definitely Asian.
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The Ottomans should not have European units, but theirs instead.
Pikeman in the same row with the Janissaries looks stupid.
Only those who do not want a European DLC now vote for the Ottomans to be the European civ. It seems to me that these 65% are all those who write on the forum that there is no need for European civs.
If Persians appeared, I believe that they should use a similar architectural style together with the Ottomans.
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You are both technically right.
The Europeans provinces were by far the richest, most populous provinces of the Ottoman Empire. It was far more prestigious for a Pasha to govern an European province than an Asian or African one. This was true until around mid-19th century (when they lost most of the ground in Europe). The Salname (official registers of the Empire) and previous similar books clearly show the ranking of provinces.
Geographically speaking though, the Ottomans had bigger territories in Asia and Africa, but they were scarcely inhabited and if you were to exclude deserts, one could easily argue in favor of Europe on that mater.
DISCLAIMER: I do have a Master Degree in Ottoman History, specifically 19th Century Syria.
That being said, the original question is a bit silly, considering I don’t think Islam as a culture and the civilisations linked to it are either European or Asian. Also, all those terms needs to be defined. Asian could mean geographically Asian, ethnically Asian, culturally Asian and so on.
For gameplay purpose, I’d note that the other Muslim civ. (Indians represents the Mughal dynasty) is considered Asian and is a multi-ethnic/religious Empire too.
I would like to see an European(-ish) civilisation that would use Wonders to age. That would be a cool gimmick. Ottomans would have been a perfect fit for that, though I obviously don’t want them to change, so maybe Persians?
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It would be really interesting. In the case of European civs it could be a palace, theater, monument, cathedral and university each specific to each civilization.
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Or maybe most civs can get a wonder-like “ultimate building” in Imperial.
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But what would happen with the Asian Wonders then?
Not really. They spent the majority of their time trying to conquer Europe, like EVERY other European country tried to do. Hence the entire premise of this game lol. What is more European than wanting to take another European country’s territory? Also, when 1/3rd the population of an empire is Orthodox Christian, and the majority of them lived in the Balkans, Thrace, Greece, Romania, parts of Hungary, and only a small portion of them lived in Syria, Lebanon, Judea, and Egypt, it’s hard to say where the Ottomans actually fit.
As for their hold on North Africa, that lost, regained, lost, regained that repeatedly but they held almost all of the Balkans from the 1300s till about 1907, if I remember my First Balkans War date correctly, maybe even later.
Though I disagree on them being anti-European, their cultures were entirely too mixed together in the empire, and then further mixed and coexisted with other European peoples. Like, a large portion of the Jews in Greece came from Spain, the Ottoman sultan gave them shelter when the Spanish kicked them all out. Many Orthodox Christians remained in the empire because they were treated better by the Ottomans than they were by Catholic Austria. Also, the sultans themselves were only partially Turkish. Many of them had European mothers. Selim II’s mother, Hurrem Sultan was Ukrainian or Ruthenian, she had red hair, which her son inherited.
Also, Ottoman hostility towards classical Arab culture is well documented.
But I digress, I am just saying, from a historical standpoint they are this, and that does not really effect my opinion on how they should play. It would be SUPER cool if they could ship ethnic villagers who specialized at specific things, like ship a thing of Greek Orthodox fishing ships, that speak Greek and fish at like 15% better the rate, or Bulgarian hillfolk, who mine faster.
But they could play real well as an “Asian style civ” in this game, they have plenty of architecture to use for wonders and plenty of European nations would be available at their consulate. They were staunch allies of Sweden during their wars with Russia. France was the first major Catholic country to come to polite terms with the Ottomans, later Germany (not Austria) would replace them.
Like say they could get the Swedes at the consulate, gives them a 5% boost to all artillery attack and HP, one of their techs gives the Carolean anti-cavalry gunfire to the Janissaries, they could ship like 5 leather cannons. It would be great since there is no Swedish consulate with any other country.
But they should also add the Iranians, who could have consulates with the Ottomans, the Russians, the English, and I don’t know, the Dutch?
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Hoho, well met, my degree is in Sinology, though not the Qing dynasty (they were my second). I spent a whole year studying the Ottomans while I finished up my Han dynasty stuff, tutored a Turkish girl in English, it was rad, I learned so much random bits of their language that to this day I am shocked I remember (it’s been 10 years).
As for the Ottomans, I still think they should be more unique. They don’t have to change everything, but it would be cool if they had Yaya Spearman, the Turkish hill people who were active in the early days of the Ottomans. They could be the Strelet of spearman, cheap, useless unless fully upgraded. Then the Abus Gunner should just be named Cebeci, after the Janissary artillery corps. Though their “hussar” drives me up a wall, they didn’t have those. They had sipahi, deli light cavalry, used as shock troops, the akinci irregulars (cavalry archers for the game’s purposes), and the kappukulu, the like, mounted Janissary heavy cavalry that guarded the sultan (Although, they would be a redundant unit, as the Sipahi is that in this game, functionality speaking).
But it would be so super cool if they aged up like a Asian civ, they could have Sultan Ahmet Mosque that ships like villagers en masse on completion. They could have Tokapi Palace that ships Janissaries, and they could have like unique shipments, like a card for 5 Greek fishing ships that fish at a higher rate than the normal ones.
For the record, I detest the Indians in this game. They are a combo-civ, Mughals, Marathas, and British Raj, but they represent them all very poorly. Like, where’s the Mughal heavy cavalry archer that Emperor Babur and Akbar used extensively? And while I love that they have Rajputs, Gurkhas, and there are Sikh units like the Jat Lancer (which is a useless unit if you ask me lol), they need more of their Central Asian influence. I just want more Mongols, is what I’m saying lol.
I would LOVE for them to put Iran in, and it be a mesh of the Safavids and Afsharids and Qajar, like, they could have the horse zamburaks that Nadir Shah used extensively, they could have the Shah’s Mosque as a wonder, have Qizilbash heavy infantry (like Rodeleros maybe), Azeri cavalry archers, and since later the Russians and English interfered constantly, they could be two of the consulate allies. One could be the Ottomans or even the Indians (I’d rather that be it). Imagine if the Indians were used as a consulate, you could get a tech that increases your lumber gathering rate, you could train Mahout Lancers or Howdahs, and the civ as a whole could give a gold gathering rate increase since the Mughals had like, the most diamonds and whatnot in the entire planet at the time.
Ah man, making me really wish the Iranians were in this. Also now I am remembering my long standing grievance of the Chinese and Indians not having arsenals. I think they desperately need them. The Chinese don’t need counter infantry rifling, since Repelling Volley does it, but they need that marching speed increase like the Russians need their ability to train units fast. If the Chinese had the Confucian Academy turn into a small arsenal, with the marching bonus tech, artillery speed bonus tech, HP buff to their cavalry (which needs it since the Iron Flail is trash and the Meteor Hammer is so good but a glass cannon).
MAN, I really want to play a game of AOE3 right now but it’s midnight here…
Also, I am very pleased to know other historians actually play this game!
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Wait, where are the bulgarians originally from?
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The Bulgarians are a composite people. Half Slav, half Bulgar (Turkic).
Ottomans never were European, and never will be considered European.
They set themselves apart from the Europeans, and thought themslves superior. Their dream was to make Europe entirely Turk, thus changing it forever into something non-European.
It does not matter how many subjects they had in Europe, or how much territory. They never adopted European culture, language, religion, philosophy, habits, diet, societal structure; or any other factor that one can definitely describe as originating in Europe.
The Ottomans were Asian, they had Asiatic ancestry, culture, language, religion, philosophy, habits, diet and Societal structure.
They tried to make Europe Turk, not make Turkey European.
Ah yes, if I force another country’s women, I get to say my offspring can inherit the land…
Where your mother comes from, has no bearing in what you are. It is how you are raised. The Mongols did not become less Mongol, because they took women from the conquered peoples.
This is really bad logic.
You do realize this is Racism, do you not?
Having one ethnic group of Vills be better at one thing than another, implies there are genetic differences in them, which is why devs stay away from mechanics like these.
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No one is equal, some groups are better at different things than others. No superior ethnicity, but no equal one either.
Do not confuse Bulgars with Bulgarians. The first were a Turkic tribe from the Pontic–Caspian steppe. The second were settled bulgars mixed with slavics and thracians.
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It really depend of your definition of Ottoman. It seems to me you use the term to speak of the ruling classes of the Empire or as a synonym of Turks.
However, in general the word should be used to define the population of the Empire, regardless of their religion or ethnic background. That is how historians uses it and what makes the most sense in the game: all civs names refers to the name of the population, not the ruling class of the country.
By this logic, there is a part of the Ottomans that is definitively European in nature.
Had the name of the civ been the Turks, that would have been a very different thing.
Personally, if I see a shipment named Greeks Fishing Boats a Boat with 10% increased gather rate, I’d see some flavor more than the idea that Greeks are genetically superior at fishing than others.
When I see Russians Musketeers that are weaker than all others, I don’t assume that the Devs want to show us that Russians are not as smart/strong/disciplined as other races.
I see that as a game mechanic more than anything else and if I was to try and make sense of it, I’d probably come to the conclusion this is just a difference in training or battle experience, so nothing racial about it.
Why couldn’t we come to the same conclusion about the Greek fisherman?
(I.E a game mechanic or just a more experienced fisherman)
(PS. I dont particularly care of that idea of ethnic villagers that being said)
Ottomans were never European, they never wished to be, and always thought themselves superior to the Europeans.
Ottoman also means Turk. Ottoman Greek just means servant of the Ottoman Turks, not the same as them.
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Being European is a very modern concept. I would not be able to tell you if there ever were those kind of discussions in the Ottoman Empire or if the perspective on the subject would have evolved in the 5 centuries of Ottoman history.
From my perspective, albeit limited to 4 years of studies in Ottoman history, this is not true.
Feel free to direct me to appropriates sources.
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Why do you keep repeating this “Ottomans considered themselves superior line?” I dont see the point. Are you impying that they had a higher than normal arrogance for a great power? Modern ‘European’ identity as we know it did not exist then. Lines were drawn largely on religion and identity based on city or region. National identity did not exist never mind some kind of pan-European identity that the Ottomans could dislike in the first place. The closest you will find is Christendom which is litteraly just ‘The Christian World’ so its back to religion again.
Non muslim subjects of the Ottomans were considred lesser but largely left in peace. If you were a Greek, Serb, Bosnian or anything else if you converted to Islam you would be on the same level as a Turkish born muslim subject and many of them did.
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I think we should stop referring to them as “European” civs and start calling them Colonial Powers, since that’s what they really are. Especially with American being added to the list soon.