Possible change to Flemish Revolution

hi! so flemish revolution is a bit of a controversial tech, and everybody seem to hate it for it being a one-time thing, do not feel AOE2, is super swingy and can win or lose you the game by itself…yadda yadda

conversely, burgundiand have great cav but miss bloodlines for the obvious reason of having cheap tech and cavalier in castle age. Burgundians are already very strong of course so they do not need buffs of any sort, which is why i’m curious to know if and why this could be a decent idea

so what would you think in changing flemish revolution for a delayed variant of bloodlines for cav like zealotry for saracen’s camels?

a rather expensive tech like 600F 400G and “+20 HP on Knights and unlock flemish militia in TC” so 4 times the cost of bloodlines, make it slower to research than bloodlines, affects only knights, imperial age UT, and also unlock flemish militia since the UU exist and its cool enough

or would it be too strong?

It would obviously make the civ OP since the whole point of their bonuses and tech tree is that you will have a headstart in kts quality but in the long run they will be worse than the bonused cav of other civs. If you give them “delayed bloodlines” this basically give them the best of both world: they get to beat up your kts with cavalier, then beat up your cavalier with paladins, and if it doesn’t work they can just click that and remove their weakness, even tho they should fall of since they were so advantaged before that.


I like the idea of a cavalry bonus to somehow offset the late game weakness, but I would just follow some other path, like a discount (if an original one exists) or a res returning mechanism (like in the original civ design),

bro chill it’s a game you can’t go call bs on everyone left and right


i agree it would be strong but tbf, i suggested a pretty expensive pricetag for the tech in the hope of make it balanced

if you have a better suggestion i’m curious to hear it obviously :slight_smile:

But why would you want that? It’s like trying to give a second handcart tech to Vikings cuz eventually other civs will buy the tech and catchup economically, or let Mongols produce huntables so they can use their eco bonus all game long. It’s fine if there are bonuses that aren’t at their max effect forever.

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I actually like Flemish Revolution, although I think it should cost more and the units themselves should be a little weaker.

What you’re proposing, as an overpriced, very late bloodlines is certainly less flavorful, and not particularly needed. Burgundians still have fine cav without bloodlines, and it’s an appropriate tradeoff for their crazy bonuses. Heck, I’m not sure Flemish Revolution itself is any more OP than their eco tech/stable price bonuses (and people might not be complaining about FR for a civ like Spanish that has no crazy eco or military bonuses)

I mean you didn’t even take the time to do the maths, this upgrade + Burgundian paladin = the same cost as paladin alone for other civs.

As of an actual replacement I think the Burgundians is one of these civs that can do without an imp UT, like Cumans and Huns. Really they should only make it so that flemish militia are unlocked at the TC and that’s it. If it works out to be useful then great, if it’s as trash as Atheism then really there is no need to lose sleep over that.

No amount of eco bonuses would be able to give you a 200 pop army of Viking infantry + paladin + siege.

I’m pretty sure they would because it’s a question of principles and when the Burgundians used to have a bad eco it wasn’t exactly good for the game either.

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too strong.

how would custiliers work? either you nerf them pre “blood lines” or you buff them post bloodlines?

if anything burgundians need more options aside from pigeonholed into “knight like units” to make them more exciting to play. they’re not a weak civ, they just arent particularly different to franks and generally have the same meta every match. compared to something like hindus with the variety of options

Tbh Flemish Militia could just replace champions for Bugundians after the UT.

But I believe that the villager conversion mechanic is going to stay in one shape or another. I personally think Flemish Militia should just be made weaker (particularly vs melee heavy civs without good anti infantry UUs) but more versatile (vs archers since that way we can keep it around without it being too annoying and also less situationally OP or weak


My point is that without Burgundians’ earlier eco/military bonuses, you don’t get to paladin + siege and it plays out almost more like a frontloaded Goth infantry flood (but still too strong ATM, hence I suggested an increase price/weaker units). Honestly this is one of the techs where they might even consider making it take 5-10x longer to research and send out a warning message. The free units are powerful, but the free techswitch is also very powerful, when prior to the tech your opponent will likely be making cav counters.

Yes. The genie’s out of the bottle, as they say, and I think the odds of devs going back on the fundamentals of what FR does would be like them deciding that Shrivamsha or Chakrams should be scrapped. More likely these techs/units will be tweaked than removed.

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He said it would only affect kts, which would make elite coustilliers not worth anymore since they are supposed to be more cost effective than the Burgundian paladin against strong cavalry units, which ofc wouldn’t be the case anymore if they could FU their paladins.

Tbh I think their gp bonus is a big deal. Franks have throwing axemen and the Persians have trashbows to use as a “let’s ignore HC units”, the Burgundians have a bonus for them instead.

But then it would make more sense as a unique upgrade a la winged hussar. Which kinda mean they would end up with 3 UTs?

Then it’s just bad because you already have a PA tank in your army. That’s yet another problem with this tech, the balancing is just so hard.
Same deal with the idea of making it super long to research, if you give the enemy time to fatslob to death you’re probably just sweeping the problem under the rug by making it not viable anymore.

Shrivamsha OK, but chakrams? That’s a unit using AoK mechanics. Anyway neither are as messed up as flemish militia anyway. And yes, the cat can get back in the bag just fine, just like it did when obsidian arrows & friends got deleted.

I dont think so, if properly balanced it should still be able to overwhelm the opponent without being unstoppable

Honestly, this just makes them another Frank. I would just remove flemish revolution completely, make flemish militia available in Imp automatically and give them a new tech. I’ve been suggesting that a new tech would return back 25% - 33% gold cost of knight and constellier killed in battles, which was supposed to be their original civ bonus. but now you pay for the effect.

Maybe, but even Obsidian Arrows was just an OP version of preexisting bonuses (Sarc TB) and on a civ that had been OP since its creation. The only mechanic I can think of that they got rid of was Madrasah, mainly bc it was useless and kind of a waste of a UT for Sarcs. Not saying they couldn’t possibly do it, but changing/scrapping mechanics usually seems to be the last resort.

They removed Obsidian arrows and the Saracen new bonus for archers and their old bonus for CA and lowered the arambai base damage and changed manipur cavalry. If that’s not a full crackdwon on the whole “archer dealing bonus damage to building” deal idk what is.

I would like to remove the second effect and allow flemish militia produced in TC without costly UT.

i think a UT just to get a UU available and not even in a barracks but in a TC is very weak though, so there could be a middle ground i think.

and yeah i did not do the math since it was merely an idea to start a discussion on a problematic tech, and i was aware of the fact it could have been too much that’s why i asked for opinions and friendly discussion

What if Flemish Revolution was like the Spies tech, in that its cost depended on the number of villagers you had? Seems like this could go a long way towards balancing the tech/mitigating its abuse. Watching SoTLs Burgundians video, he shows that with 150 villagers, the tech only costs 8f Food 4.3 gold/unit, which is an insane discount on its normal 60/25 cost. Supposing the discount was 66%, for 150 vills the tech would cost 150* 20 = 3000 food and 1250 gold (currently 1200, 650). The discount could be tweaked, but it seems like this way of calculating the price would give a lot more grounding and balance to the tech.