Malay can field more. Way more. And way easier. Any extra resources can be slung, and those resources will be readily used by another ally. If there aren’t any extra resources, Malay will win simply because they will have the greater unit advantage.
You do realize you are talking about 20 hp on a 300 hp unit, right? This is like, the precise example you’d give where Bloodlines isn’t as important as having more units. Would you rather have Bloodlines (a 6% HP boost!), or 42% more elephants? Because that’s the comparison. Malay elephants cost 30% less, meaning for the same resources, you can field over 40% more elephants. That’s 40% more HP and damage to walk around. In castle age, being down one armor? That’s an absolutely insurmountable advantage for the Khmer. You are just wrong.
The meta has adapted poorly because Khmer farming was a meme and as a result, it spiked in popularity. That is not the result of consensus play of top players grinding out 1,000 TG’s that led to us understanding how good Khmer is. The Malay can literally sit in the same spot as the Khmer, spam Elephants continuously in the same manner, at the same point in the games as Khmer (khmer may have slightly better farming but Malay will have villager advantage and a massive cost reduction) and have a better elephant push than Khmer. The only point in the entire game where the Khmer have a legitimate advantage over the Malay in that regard is 30+ minutes into games where the resources are not a factor at all, and all the pockets have popped. And in that case, given how you’ve survived the pressure on Khmer against an absolutely jacked Malay pocket clone, you’ve earned it.
No they won’t. Khmer eles are better and they have an amazing economy to produce them. Do you realize how quicker the malay eles die? Do you realize that malays can’t go for three istant stable and that while on 2 their eles will severely underperform against both ranged and other eles compared to khmer ones, who can easily keep up 2 stable production early castle?
and here’s the proof you don’t know jackshit about how tgs work. Malyas DO NOT HAVE the eco to spam from three stable and boom with 3 tcs behind while Khmer can keep up with 3 tcs and 2 stable if played correctly: you are fielding the same number of eles, but malays’ one are simply worst. And yes, 1 pierce armor and 20 hp means a lot if you are both fielding the same unit in the same number (or slightly inferior if the khmer is 1 min late adding the second stable).
An here he is the classic “oh boy, everyone is stupid except me”. Pros thinks that khmer are one of the best pocket civ in 4v4 even on open land maps because of their eco and their eles, but WoelsToWho says otherwise so they must be wrong 11.
Th Khmer farm is not a meme, is one of the strongest eco bonus in the game and you have to be blind to not realize, but keep on telling people that every high elo player is doing the wrong thing by not going malay pocket against khmer pocket 11
Yeah, keep laughing at people’s points instead of contending with them. That makes you look very smart.
Khmer economy is good. It’s not impressively better, or even clearly better, than the Malay. And it’s certainly not strong enough to overcome a 30% cost disadvantage. To argue otherwise is suicide by sentence.
To claim that the Malay can’t go for three stables means you’ve tested this and you know what the economy is capable of. So tell me. When you’ve got to castle age with the optimal build for the pocket position in insert game here how much wood do you have as Malay?
Wait. You haven’t tested this hundreds of times, so you don’t know how much wood your pocket malay has on a Fast castle? So, instead of using experience, and making an evidential claim, you’re spewing nonsense and laughing about it. Great. Glad we got that out of the way.
So, you have no idea what the eco of the Malay is capable of, because you don’t play them in pocket, because the general concensus of the Meta is to not play them in pocket, yeah? So, instead of agreeing that the meta isn’t done adapting, and that the meta can shift wildly over years even with a lack of new variables, you’re just going to assert I’m wrong, assume otherwise, and laugh about it. 11
If you want to ignore the meme power of the Khmer setting farms on the edge of the map just because they can, do so at your own expense. Khmer were made popular because of their absurd farming bonus (not absurd meaning OP, absurd meaning a hilarious joke) and it happens to be a very good bonus, no doubt, but to claim that it’s going to overcome a 40% numbers advantage is a level of absurd beyond that. They are great because they are popular. They are popular because they are good.
Dear diary, today I have learned that the Khmer bonus farm is a meme bonus. Today I also have learned that the entire competitive scene is wrong.
The meta is wrong, the pros are wrong, everyone is wrong except some random dude on a forum
Here’s your problem: You think I’m telling people they’re wrong. You think that, because you call people wrong when you disagree with them. That’s not how discussion works if you’re trying to get anywhere productive.
I am not calling the competitive scene wrong. I am not calling top players wrong. I think they have perfectly good reasons to believe absolutely everything they’re saying and doing. They are also learning the game, because the game has infinite depth. When you learn, you don’t learn everything all at once. What you learn is determined not only by what you do, but what people around you do. Therefore, what you do, what others do, and how you deal with it, becomes the “meta.” In order for us to learn about Burmese pocket, someone had to play it, and play against it. Simple?
My contention is that. Khmer got a play spike because of a popular change. Players both played as, and against, the Khmer a lot. As a result, the meta was shaped by them because people learned to play as / against them. That makes them, by default, a meta pocket civ. That doesn’t mean they are the best (and it doesn’t mean they aren’t the best, either) nor does it mean they define or warp the meta. That just means they got popularized and saw play, during which time players found out how to play them extremely well, and turns out, that makes a civ better. The Khmer builds are defined and solved, mostly. That’s a massive advantage to the Khmer.
That’s naturally going to reduce the strength of civs that are non-meta since they don’t have the same level of familiarity and adaptation. I gave one example of a civ, that objectively speaking, would be able to field an even more effective battle elephant push in the middle stages of the game in the same circumstance. Is that me telling the players they’re wrong? No. That’s me contributing my experience to the meta.
Malay battle elephant pushes are scary, and they’re more powerful, earlier, than the Khmer. That’s the point. I’m not calling anyone wrong. I’m making the indisputable point that meta options will always warp the perspectives of players and the strength of options.
Khmer farms are faster than any other farm bonus in game, simply because they drop food instantly, while others have to wait until gather certain amount.
Also slav farm bonus isn’t that good it means if you have 50 farmers you would get food as fast as if you had 55 farmers, hence forum warrior still saying their farms are the best because of spirit of the law made a video for super low elo players, also slavs don’t burn that food, while khmer usually make above +65 farmers cause their production is based on food units.
They need to nerf their speedy eles or slows down their farming bonuses, i’d go for removing the speed of their eles.
i and ii are basically the same bonus. Statement i implies statement ii.
And inspite of that bonus, their first layer of farmers are slower than Aztecs and Slavs. Its only the second layer of farmers that are faster. And the civ itself is good but not OP. In ranked games they have less than 50% win rate at every elo level (pros, intermediates, newbies, low elo legends) in both 1v1s and Team games. And they have moderate pick rate.
At a tournament level, sure they’re getting picked and have a decent pick/win rate but so do the civs like Aztecs, Vikings, Mayans, Chinese, Britons which have been picked all the time for 20 years. What’s the problem in having a civ good and that can compete against these civs in tournaments. Should Aztecs, Vikings, Mayans, Chinese, Britons and some map specific civs be the only ones to get picked all the time?
And the nerf you’re proposing takes them back to Wololokingdom days where, even though Battle elephants had 16+7 final attack and 50% blast damage, Khmer were still the worst civ. Lowest win rate in 1v1 at all levels and not so popular in TGs either. If you go through tournament archives, you will never see them picked. Maybe Viper would have played once or twice in group stages for ‘mastapiece’ but no one else.
Now they’ve already nerfed battle elephants too much. All they had to do before was put the Khmer 15% speed bonus into Tusk Swords along with the +3 attack and increase the cost of that upgrade. This way in early castle age Elephants wont chase down crossbows in lower numbers and Khmer will have to do knights in early castle age and then transition into Battle Elephants.
Wrong khmer farmers are the best because not walking time, no gathering time to drop the food and not losing food in case of raidings, do not underestimate insta drop food, that is the biggest bonus, the timings on their production is nearly perfect, aztks have 18% faster farmers as hidden civ bonus cause the extra time for gathering the +5 food to make things fair, otherwise they would have the slowest farmers in game, you can feel how slow their vills work at berries, the timings has the biggest impact in the gameplay at early stages, khmer have the perfect boom bonus.
Now they have the fast eles capable of killing archers and defend vs raids, 5 khmer eles are enough to take down a tc, can you do the same with 5 or 10 kths, the answer is not not even close, their food production allows them to have better economy than other civs, in full boom scenario vikings can do better, but khmer can keep vill and military production because they are jumping the gathering time in farms to drop the food.
The nerf is aiming to that to the boom situations, vikings are not even close to all the damage that khmer can do as pkt, only indians with their broke imp camel can counter them, but if you add arbs then it is a clear win for the khmer pkt.
Khmer were good in arena and as pkt in wololokingdoms, but players were using random civs not fixed positions so it was really hard to abuse them like now, despite that BE was stronger.
Not losing farm villagers to raids depends on how good a player you are. If you react to enemy raids quickly you won’t lose all your farmers, just a couple of them mostly. And this is a very minor occasional benefit. And Aztecs don’t have 18% faster farmers as a hidden bonus. The +5 carry capacity means villagers do fewer rotations and have lesser idle time while working on a farm. Thus effectively their farmers collect 10-12% more food in the same amount of time. This is also why wheelbarrow causes a good increase in farm gather rate.
Coming back to the original comparison, just the raw bonus itself is weaker compared to Aztecs, Slavs etc. Here’s a link to some experiments done on net food collected by farmers from different civs:
Note: This was before the 3% nerf, so the net rate differences will be slightly lower for Khmer now.
The elephant speed is actually the problem which is why I said that it needs to be clubbed with their unique tech or reduced to 10%, so that they’re speed is lower than archery range units.
5 Khmer elephants are going to take down a tc only if the defending player has no army, no monks and that way saracen crossbows, goth long swordsmen for proportional cost can take down town centers too. Elephants are weaker to conversions, cost double the food and are significantly slower compared to knights. They’re good front-line units in team games and if the speed bonus is adjusted, they won’t remain OP.
Tbh I do not think this is just the farm bonus. This is due to their farms (excellent eco) plus a deadly late game unit (speedy ele).
A general rule should be that a top late game should be balanced with a difficult early game.
Probably Vikings do not have many options to deal with Koreans in a post imp scenario, but I think that if the korean player manages to get there, he deserves to win…
Khmer have:
top eco
open tech tree
deadly late game (this is important in tgs)
So, if the problem is tg (I can definitely agree), I would act on their deadly late game, not on the farms.
I do not think Khmer are that superior to aztecs, mayans, china, in 1v1. In TGs, we have a different story…
The continuous trickle is indeed really nice for unit production (at least in the early game) but the main thing still is not having to walk to drop-off points. This is what increases their overall farming rate. In the end farming speed is measured by how many res farmers collect over a set period of time.
Please what, are you for real?^^ Assuming you are not kidding, you can’t be more wrong with that. Aztecs farmers don’t have a hidden farming bonus they are precisely so fast because (!) they carry +5. This lets them carry 50% more res (before wheel) which significantly decreases their walking time. The same reason why Khmer farmers are faster (just that Khmer have a negative hidden attribute which makes them work slower so that’s it’s a bit fairer). So aztecs also collect berries and other res faster, the difference to other civs just isn’t as large as with farmers (walking time has a bigger impact, here).
The way they have been drafted/picked is quite interesting. They haven’t been drafted in quite a number of series but then they were picked a lot for game 1 in those sets where they have been drafted. I guess that discrepancy is due to some players still play the kotd ara map like the more closed DE one (preferring civs like britons and vikings). I think it’s fair to say that along with Franks and Slavs, Khmer is a top3 scout civ atm so that’s why players expect them to perform well on the open kotd arabia.
Based on the pick of the first three days it seems like the best scouts civ are Khmer (67% pick rate, used 9 times), Franks (63% pick rate, used 9 times) and Lithuanians (63% pick rate, used 9 times)
Yes I am watching and watching them right now. Khmer were picked 12 times and have only 50% win rate, 2 of those coming from Hera, Tatoh playing against a significantly weaker opponent. And Vikings, Franks, Chinese, Mayans have been picked more number of times. I’m NOT saying Khmer is a weak civ or a mid-tier civ, its a “good” civ but not “OP”. If Sora Kuma or Valas, despite being significantly weaker players won their respective games against Mbl or Max with Khmer, then yes, Khmer are OP. However even higher seeded player Fire(seed 19) as Khmer lost to Chart seeded 46 as Franks. So the results are mixed and the civ is good to be popular at a competitive level but not “OP”.
I’m keeping simple. They are an S tier civ in Open maps 1v1 (have been picked at least ten times in KOD). And they’re simply broken in TG and Arena. They have no weak point in any age, and have a super wide tech tree (arbs, champions, freat siege, cavalier, best elephants).
When you have a civ that’s unstoppable in one type of scenario, and S tier on the rest, well… That’s OP
They have been banned 2 times, drafted 22 times (appearing in 75% of the drafts) and they have been used 13 times (7 wins, 6 losses).
Not bad since some people on this forums still thinks they are a civ with a meme bonus 11