Power Creep leaving Some Legacy Civs Behind, Ottomans Dead

there is too much power creep with the new units and cards. we now have a dragoon unit that performs the same as halberdiers in melee against heavy cavalry while being cheaper among other things.

compare janissaries and javelin riders. both cost 115 resources, have the same 210 hit points and ranged damage per second of 10 every 1.5 seconds. javelin riders also move 63% faster.

javelin riders additionally deal much more bonus damage against heavy cavalry and artillery, with triple the damage output vs heavy cavalry at range and 2.5 times the damage against artillery. javelin cavalry even perform better in melee mode vs cavalry than janissaries since they trade 25% melee hit points for a massive 67% damage boost against cavalry.

javelin cavalry trade evenly with hussars in melee only with the fight going either way, while living with 80/50 hit points against janissaries, 2/3 hits away from death. it gets even more absurd in age 3, with javelin riders with counter cavalry card soloing veteran hussars with cavalry combat in melee only, while veteran janissary with combat card shipped will lose. counter cavalry doesn’t even boost melee bonus and only has a 15% hit point modifier in this instance, yet a 115 resource ranged dragoon unit with a 15% hit point boost is soloing a 200 resource unit with a 15/15% stat increase in melee mode, while janissary with a 20/20% boost cant. they perform equally! with halberdiers in melee against heavy cavalry despite being cheaper, having a ranged attack and moving much faster.

despite costing the same amount they are much better than janissaries against their counters, surviving 3 times more falconet shots and 6 more skirmisher shots. they cost effectively defeat janissaries while choosing when to engage against them. against heavy cavalry they also deal 3/4 times more damage from range than janissaries while also dealing 67% more damage in melee mode, outperforming every dedicated 1 pop heavy infantry unit cost effectively against heavy cavalry while being considerably faster with a ranged attack.

and unlike janissaries they come from a building that can make other units and have much better scaling due to cards and ranged resistance, being extremely effective against cavalry and other units throughout the game. javelin riders are better generalists and better melee specialists, the one major advantage janissaries have is a higher siege damage.

compare how they perform against abus guns and it gets funnier. it takes abus guns 7 shots at 3.5 rof to kill a javelin rider, while only taking 3 shots with CIR against janissary. javelin cavalry are also a more cost effective counter to abus guns than janissary are to heavy cavalry. let that sink in for a moment. and if you run down abus and force them into melee mode, the disparity gets even bigger.

there is not one unit you can make as ottomans to counter javelin cavalry. some of this has come from the terrible meta changes started by esoc to force a more defensive/boom meta, such as nerfing jans and abus to prevent rushing/extended age 2 play and empower ff strategies. but a lot of it also has to do with the power creep that the new expansion bring. both units and cards should be bought down to vanilla levels. there is no reason for +20% stat boosts, even +15% cards have too much power. meanwhile legacy systems such as +10/10% RG upgrades for 800 more resources are left in the dust with all the crazy bonuses in the game.

with the recent ±5% armor changes, decoupling xp bounties from resource costs, +20% cards, increased disparities between resources shipped and shipment value, and ±50 resource crates/non standard ±0.5 rof it looks like the terrible esoc design values are making things worse rather than better.

units need to more closely follow a performance baseline compared to their costs, xp values should match resource costs, shipments should more closely align with their resource values, cards need to be weaker, resistance changes should be a last resort and in steps of 10%, and all the 2.5/3.5 rof should be moved back to a 3.0 rof standard.


Javelins are surely getting the nerf next round.


Bigger problem is “flexibility creep”.
Even until TWC the design of civs were extremely conservative. if you lack a certain unit type, you either do not have that unit at all, or need to rely on some expensive one-time cards or pure luck on mercenaries. Some very special units or those with exceptional stats are either countered hard (rifle rider) or very limited (spahi).
Then TAD came in. Now you can infinitely access those units you don’t regularly have, and switch between options (though quite expensive) to adjust to different needs.
Now with US and Africans, even the TAD civs look blend.

If you want to make something like mercenaries or natives more viable, it should be generally more viable to all, with some civs even better at them as an advantage, not leaving it still unviable to all the rest except the new civs.

Compared to that, the stats of javelin riders looks like a minor fix.


I just lost to cannoneer/javelin rider combo as Ottoman…

When I saw the INSANITY of Javelin Riders stats… came straight to the forums to share exactly what you are feeling.

oh you forgot to mention their “Abus Gun” are 1 pop?!.. while having same HP, same attack bonuses… and just a slight less Damage?

thats just a slap in the face of ottomans that have NO OTHER unit choices


Well I guess your Nazim rush met its match.
But yeah, maybe Ottomans need an archer type unit in age 2, to supplement abus guns being 2 pop.

I am pretty certain javelins will get nerfed in 3 weeks time.

1 Like

I cannot agree more… ottos NEED better anticav at this point.
Abus need to be 1 pop… and while you at it… make cav archer available in age2. seriously I actually started using African Natives at this point please check recorded game (vs current 2k+ elo Rank5 opponent) and look how population and decent Anti-Cav makes a difference… if in that game I used Janissary it would’ve been a whole different story.
Xita_vs_Finz.age3Yrec (3.0 MB)

PS. I wish they fix otto so we don’t have to be forced into make silly BO’s like nizam rush/semi FI or using Natives…
tbh I don’t even like it nizam Semi-FI strat… dont enjoy the gameplay that way… I wish we had more age2 fighting in general


I do agree that ottoman needs a foot archer. The real army used archers late into the 18th century, and it wouldn’t at all be out of place. I could imagine a unit similar to yumi, maybe a bit lower damage for longer range (like 22 range same as longbows) to avoid conflict with abus, something like 15 or 16 damage rof of 3 kinda thing. pretty much any unit that could counter ranged cavalry would be a very welcome addition


Apparently no one agrees with you the ott’s are dead. At least at the 1300pr 4 of 5 of my last games 1v1 were ott’s. Only one rematch. It seems they are able to hold their own.

1 Like

Abus need 1 pop … maybe lower the damage to 30 vs 40 and another anti cav unit available besides janissary from barracks or make cav archers available in age2 and test it out. I dont think thats gonna make them OP

ONLY at 1300elo I can see ottos being “Strong”

1 Like

I don’t think general anti cav is needed, more like anti light cav. Their only option is the abus gun, and they cannot be properly massed until industrial.

This wasn’t an issue so far as there were like 2 civs that had early dragoons and those were not as effective as javelins, but holy macaroni, javelins wipe everything ottomans have.

you are correct… but ALSO think this way… IF abus were 1 pop they “could” be cost effective vs goons and other light anti cav. but right now… if you manage to mass abus you wont have how to protect them cause of pop/cost issues

Abus cannot be 1 pop unless it is via a card/upgrade in industrial age. They are too oppressive against infantry early on.
This is why I was suggesting adding a foot archer in age 2, which gradually gets replaced by abus in later stages of the game, like how xbows get replaced by skirmishers.

1 Like

I fail to see why not? when Ethiopians have just that! abus cost a ridiculous 100g/50f/20w ! and they are not cost effective … you have acually lost to a brit that just massed musket when i was jani/abus… cause he was 100% more effective even though i was winning the battles

1 Like

Ethiopia will get nerfed. So it is too early to talk about giving everyone AOE skirmishers in the early game. I don’t think this is a pandora box we want to open more than it already is xD

This is like leather cannons, it will take time but I’m sure the overly effective African units will be nerfed in line.

1 Like

Right now Ethiopia have the equivalent of (or better) cav archers in age2 and abus gun with 1 pop + better eco than ottomans smh…

Yes, that push is very strong, which is why I expect it to be nerfed soon-ish.
There are also several variations of it and all have the javelin rider in common, so I think that’s the biggest issue.

If we ever got Persians it would be great if Ottomans could be reworked alongside them, maybe they could share some unique mechanics and architecture in the same way TWC TAD and TAR civs do.

Ottomans are honestly the only ones being left behind, Germans, Russians, British, Dutch, are all great civs ( yes, I think Russia is pretty viable now )

Portugal and Spain I’m not sure about after the nerfs, it will obviously take time to determine where they sit in the meta but I suspect they will still be good civs .

This isn’t really power creep because it’s pretty certain that these civs are going to get nerfed soon, rather than power creep I just think it’s the fact that the meta doesn’t favor ottomans the same way it used to back in legacy, and the fact that new civs take about a month before they get nerfed to the same level as other civs.

Also ottos aren’t that far behind, if we assume the average civ is A tier then ottos would be B tier, so I don’t think any massive buffs are needed and just some adjustments to the mosque techs or something.

I’m keeping their elo inflated since I lose every single game to them.