# Problematic Russian Changes **URL:** \ **Category:** III - Discussion\ **Created:** [August 5, 2023, 8:48pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450 "2023-08-05T20:48:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m00z1lla/32/104042_2.png) [@M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M00Z1LLA)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 8:48pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/1 "2023-08-05T20:48:26Z")
The recent Russian reworks have been great changes overall, but some of the new additions really miss the mark. Several of the new units, cards, and techs are incorrectly named or completely made up and could do with some revisions that would improve the gameplay and historical accuracy. # Church Technologies Moving the techs _Bakshir Ponies_ and _Kalmyks_ into cards was absolutely the right call since it didn’t make much sense to have Muslim Bakshirs and Buddhist Kalmyks as the units delivered by Church techs. However, what they’ve replaced them with is [astoundingly bad](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/more-intuitive-counter-skirmishers-and-dismounting-units/224226/5). “Counter-\_\_\_\_” is just not a real thing and seems so unbelievably lazy that it is kind of shocking it was done by devs who have done such excellent work on the rest of the update. Instead of completely fictional units, they should have techs that actually promote interesting history and gameplay. ### ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/4/9/497f7055f17e705b46b3200dcaa74468680faf65.png) Lifeguard Jaegers → [Pan-Slavism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Slavism) Ships Pandurs and Hajduks (both still counter light infantry). The Russians were constantly seeking more influence in the Balkans and often cited protecting their fellow Orthodox Christians as a reason for intervening in the region. It could also enable these units at the Tavern. ### ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/a/e/ae34bafe0ce02889a72b3bf2325e3b9f5afbaa84.png) St. Petersburg Dragoons → [Hospitaller Refuge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_tradition_of_the_Knights_Hospitaller) Ships Hospitallers and possibly other Maltese units (maybe even a Fixed Gun?). The Tsar took in the remnants of the order after Napoleon conquered Malta so protection of this religious order is a great fit for a church tech. Getting a Fixed Gun would be so much more fun than a made up Dragoon that beats other Dragoons. # Units There’s nothing wrong with replacing Ruskets and Halberdiers, but they could really do better with what they are replacing them with. There are also long standing issues like Stetlsy having an incorrect stance. ### Rekrut → [Opolcheniye](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narodnoe_Opolcheniye) First of all, [Rekruts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rekrut) aren’t uniquely Russian. Secondly, the name means recruit just like it sounds, so “Veteran Rekrut” is an oxymoron. A much better name for these weak units that are recruited en mass would be Opolcheniye. These were militias levied to defend Russia, so they definitely fit the bill for weak massable infantry. The only problem is that Northern Musketeers from the Oldenburg house are actually Opolcheniye (why they pulled a random name out of their ass instead of calling them what they are is baffling). Fortunately, this conflict can be solved via some [fixes to royal house units](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/fixing-the-royal-house-units/233930). The unit models of Rekruits and Northern Musketeers are already so similar that it might be the case that both units are based on Opolcheniye anyways. ![Screenshot (209)](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/3/5/35406b87326c153cb7995cee09facdc9bba21d45.jpeg) ### Northern Musketeer → [Rynda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rynda) If Opolcheniye/Northern Musketeers become a standard Russian unit, a new unit will be required at the Oldenburg royal house. Rynda were bodyguards of the Tsars and grand princes so they are an excellent fit for the royal house that represents the Tsars. ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/1/c/1c1ec393b5ae19e4677047820aceeb064285da21.jpeg) ### Swapping Streltsy and Opolcheniye (Ruskets) As a relic of their initial design as a musket infantry unit, Streltsy have always used the incorrect pose with a gun over their shoulder instead of the proper rifle infantry pose with a gun held diagonally in front of them. They also have always been armed with a huge bardische which makes them look extremely imposing despite them being complete trash in melee before the _Sovnya_ card was introduced. Now that Russia no longer has Musketeers, what if the initial design of Streltsy as musket infantry was revisited? A tough musket infantry would make them fit their musket holding, axe wielding appearance much better. Both Rekruts and Opolcheniye are essentially just conscripts or untrained volunteers with nothing to specify them as musket infantry or rifle infantry. In fact, their mass recruitment would make them the best fit for the weak light infantry units trained in batches of 10. ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/8/1/81cdb4cbefd9fa9874fe1b44102229b4df7e2a92.jpeg) ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/b/b/bb8ec3718a31db008d8ef11ac05cc7bc145e9683.jpeg) ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/3/7/37cbd7cc3c6907e5159951d4a5d9394a7af09fcc.jpeg) # Cards ### ![landed_gentry](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/4/7/47788f9f66644dc18ecac5da762b771cb1ec0464.png) Landed Gentry → [Tatar Yoke](https://waytorussia.net/WhatIsRussia/Mongol-Yoke-History.html) What the landed nobility has to do with Cavalry Archers is a mystery to me. Calling the card _ **Tatar Yoke** _ would reference Mongol-Tatar rule over Russia which would make way more sense for a card that enables early Cavalry Archers. ### ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/e/0/e04cec027465c2834002ec00be02199230a2a179.png) Economic Theory → [Emancipation of the Serfs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_reform_of_1861) Russia’s economy was generally a basket case so it’s not so accurate for them to have a card called _ **Economic Theory** _. The devs even flirted with the idea of removing the card but put it back because it’s too essential for keeping Russia’s economy going. Another problematic change is that Russia now has [210 population](https://www.ageofempires.com/news/age-of-empires-iii-de-update-13-58326/#:~:text=New%20civilization%20bonus%3A%C2%A0Can%20now%20reach%20210%20population%20space%20to%20offset%20the%20individual%20weakness%20of%20Russian%20units%20in%20late%20game) as a civ bonus. This is quite inaccurate given that Russia had a smaller population than France until the late 1800s and civs like India that actually had a massive population still only have 200. It also is trying to fix something that wasn’t ever an issue. Yes, your infantry isn’t population efficient, but they train so fast it doesn’t really matter. These two issues could be resolved by merging the eco boost and extra population space into a single new card called _ **Emancipation of the Serfs** _. Liberating the peasants from the land freed up a sizable portion of the population to work in other endeavors so it fits both functions and highlights an important moment in Russian history. The card could be moved to a later age to reflect when Russia had a larger population and when emancipation happened. ### ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/4/2/42a9cc613a237a55cc637527ca0d969572a01b0b.png) Milyutin Reforms → [False Dmitry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_Dmitry) If Northern Musketeers cease to be a thing, this card could be replaced by another one that swaps your Poruchik with Rynda. The false Dmitrys were imposters claiming to be the dead son of Ivan the Terrible in order to take the throne so the transformation from a general unit to a royal bodyguard is a great fit. Since there were multiple false Dmitrys, this card should be able to be sent twice. ---
**Author:** ![Apocalypso4826](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/apocalypso4826/32/75648_2.png) [@Apocalypso4826](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Apocalypso4826)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 10:33pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/4 "2023-08-05T22:33:03Z")
I plan to play the Russians during the duration of their time in the pool, so this was interesting to read. ---
**Author:** ![MatM1996](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matm1996/32/29566_2.png) [@MatM1996](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatM1996)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 12:42am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/5 "2023-08-06T00:42:05Z")
Yes, you who come from AoE 2, you have to remember that the Russians of AoE 3 are like the Goths of AoE 2, that is, they spam cheap or weak units but in large numbers, that is, like the Russian philosophy of war: “quantity before quality”… ---
**Author:** ![Apocalypso4826](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/apocalypso4826/32/75648_2.png) [@Apocalypso4826](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Apocalypso4826)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 12:44am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/6 "2023-08-06T00:44:14Z")
I’ll have to keep that in mind. They have a similar bonus. ---
**Author:** ![M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m00z1lla/32/104042_2.png) [@M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M00Z1LLA)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 4:21am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/7 "2023-08-06T04:21:40Z")
I think I found what they were trying to go for with the _Landed Gentry_ card. It appears like they were making a reference to the [landed armies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landed_Army) who apparently fought primarily as mounted archers. It fits with the European look of their units. ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/f/4/f4ac6ca78f32f71c11d762052002c8ccc6fff12a.jpeg) ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/f/c/fccbc83ca432d9615b3199315b1ffead6309d443.jpeg) Even so, I’d say this is somewhat obscure especially when they call it Landed Gentry instead of Landed Army. Even the depiction is of the nobles’ combat slaves and not the actual gentry. Tatar Yoke also just sounds way cooler so I’d still be in favour of renaming them. The name of the Halberdier replacement is also a bit iffy to me. Poruchik just means lieutenant, so it is an odd choice for a Halberdier equivalent. [Kholop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kholop) (combat slaves) or [Pernach Macemen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pernach) could be other options for the unit. ---
**Author:** ![SchwarzeGarde49](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/schwarzegarde49/32/144601_2.png) [@SchwarzeGarde49](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SchwarzeGarde49)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 4:54am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/8 "2023-08-06T04:54:25Z")
I quite like the patch changes, they feel like the ottoman rework in a way, emphasizing that russia is both european, and non-european, if only visually. However, i think the new _Milyutin Reforms_ card is too weak, perhaps because by the time it can ship, rekruts are already stronger than northerns. At least they should be trainable after the card has been sent - otherwise the “reform” was futile in a way ---
**Author:** ![HoopThrower](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/hoopthrower/32/56873_2.png) [@HoopThrower](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/HoopThrower)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 4:57am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/9 "2023-08-06T04:57:16Z")
Funnily enough, had a similar debate with some old friends when the Rekrut name was revealed. The name “Ratnik” was also shuffled around since it fits well the role of “musketeer but trashier”, problem is, it’s still the name used for russian conscripts nowadays, so if you google the name the results tend to be… _oof_ Your solution is much better. ---
**Author:** ![Apocalypso4826](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/apocalypso4826/32/75648_2.png) [@Apocalypso4826](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Apocalypso4826)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 5:08am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/10 "2023-08-06T05:08:37Z")
> [@HoopThrower](#): > > Funnily enough, had a similar debate with some old friends when the Rekrut name was revealed. The name “Ratnik” was also shuffled around since it fits well the role of “musketeer but trashier”, problem is, it’s still the name used for russian conscripts nowadays, so if you google the name the results tend to be… _oof_ Yeah, my one friend was surprised that the Russians are in the current pool, given what’s going on in the world right now. ---
**Author:** ![IvanZvania](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/ivanzvania/32/107966_2.png) [@IvanZvania](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/IvanZvania)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 7:51am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/11 "2023-08-06T07:51:23Z")
La facción rusa es una de las favoritas de la gente y nada tiene que ver con los gobiernos actuales. ---
**Author:** ![KG19991380](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/kg19991380/32/65260_2.png) [@KG19991380](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/KG19991380)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 7:59am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/12 "2023-08-06T07:59:31Z")
to be clear, goths on serious crack ---
**Author:** ![BroaderSheep35](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/broadersheep35/32/101309_2.png) [@BroaderSheep35](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/BroaderSheep35)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 9:50am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/14 "2023-08-06T09:50:09Z")
I bet Rekruts were choosen simply because they sound like RUSKETS which is how every aoe3 player call russian musketeers??? ---
**Author:** ![ArkadasLlisa](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/arkadasllisa/32/114107_2.png) [@ArkadasLlisa](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/ArkadasLlisa)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 11:02am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/15 "2023-08-06T11:02:36Z")
> [@MatM1996](#): > > Russian philosophy of war: “quantity before quality”… That is actually not true, but I don’t want to go offtopic ---
**Author:** ![M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m00z1lla/32/104042_2.png) [@M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M00Z1LLA)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 2:09pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/16 "2023-08-06T14:09:33Z")
This misconception is part of the reason why they gave Russia 210 population so I wouldn’t say it’s off topic. ---
**Author:** ![PratUshh](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/pratushh/32/72339_2.png) [@PratUshh](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/PratUshh)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 2:16pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/17 "2023-08-06T14:16:47Z")
> [@M00Z1LLA](#): > > Another problematic change is that Russia now has [210 population](https://www.ageofempires.com/news/age-of-empires-iii-de-update-13-58326/#:~:text=New%20civilization%20bonus%3A%C2%A0Can%20now%20reach%20210%20population%20space%20to%20offset%20the%20individual%20weakness%20of%20Russian%20units%20in%20late%20game) as a civ bonus. This is quite inaccurate given that Russia had a smaller population than France until the late 1800s and civs like India that actually had a massive population still only have 200. It also is trying to fix something that wasn’t ever an issue. Yes, your infantry isn’t population efficient, but they train so fast it doesn’t really matter. you have my money on this. ---
**Author:** ![MUTYLATOR5553](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/mutylator5553/32/115284_2.png) [@MUTYLATOR5553](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MUTYLATOR5553)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/18 "2023-08-06T14:22:07Z")
In my opinion Romanov and Rurykid Royal Houses would be useful. It’s really weird that the Oldenburg Royal House has access to the North Musketeers (there should be some Danish, Norwegian or North German unit in that place). Overall the Royal Houses are great but too chaotic in terms of geography and historical accuracy. There are too many generalities out there. More brand new Royal Houses needed - especially for Eastern European (Rurik, Romanov) and Mediterranean (Medici, Ottoman, Borgia, Trastamara) maps. ---
**Author:** ![BaphometSLM](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/baphometslm/32/148191_2.png) [@BaphometSLM](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/BaphometSLM)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 2:35pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/19 "2023-08-06T14:35:01Z")
As much as I’d love some new royal houses, I think they should first give proper names to the current royal house units. Right now they are way too generic. ---
**Author:** ![M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m00z1lla/32/104042_2.png) [@M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M00Z1LLA)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 3:42pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/20 "2023-08-06T15:42:47Z")
Romanov is just a branch of Oldenburg that’s why they have Russian units. The Rurikid line ended before the 1600s and the Russian maps are already covered by Jagiellonian and Oldenburg houses. Ideally, new royal houses should have several factors in their favour to justify their inclusion. - Relevance - How powerful were they? - Did their rule last for a significant duration? - Appropriate units to represent them - [Most of the current royal houses don’t even have this](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/fixing-the-royal-house-units/233930) - Significant geographic distribution - They have to appear commonly enough for players to get used to them (5+ maps) - If the areas they ruled are already adequately covered they should be a lower priority Given those criteria, I’d say you could maybe justify [Medici](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Medici) and [Nassau](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Nassau) as additional royal houses. Ottomans would also fit the criteria, but I’d much rather a different type of settlement like Armenians or Kurds for those maps. You also have to keep in mind that there are already 9 royal houses which makes them massively overrepresented compared to other regions like Asia and Africa. ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/4/d/4d435c7ea15b7fb9869285272860ed2adeae5c34.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![SirBarnzy1](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/sirbarnzy1/32/130346_2.png) [@SirBarnzy1](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SirBarnzy1)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/21 "2023-08-06T18:46:20Z")
> [@M00Z1LLA](#): > > The name of the Halberdier replacement is also a bit iffy to me. Poruchik just means lieutenant, so it is an odd choice for a Halberdier equivalent. [Kholop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kholop) (combat slaves) or [Pernach Macemen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pernach) could be other options for the unit Yeah, it’s a bit odd - would love to know their source for ref! Some Slavic nations such as the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth used their NCOs as polearm soldiers should cavalry attack their musketeers though I believe it was 1 NCO to 10 muskets or so (the ‘10th man’). So… It may be a tenuous link to that (though Poruchiks/ Poruczniks were commissioned, right? (Being a lieutenant equivalent). ---
**Author:** ![JiMMy12013](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jimmy12013/32/158778_2.png) [@JiMMy12013](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/JiMMy12013)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 8:47pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/22 "2023-08-06T20:47:19Z")
What are your thoughts on the cavalry archer change? Changing from Tatar Loyalist to Dvoryanin which just means Nobel. ---
**Author:** ![M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m00z1lla/32/104042_2.png) [@M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M00Z1LLA)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 9:44pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450/23 "2023-08-06T21:44:48Z")
The nobles did serve as cavalry archers so it’s not wrong, but it does seem slightly unnecessary. I always thought that they were given Cavalry Archers partly because of the [Tatar auxiliaries used by the Russians in the Napoleonic Wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mounted_archery#:~:text=During%20the%20Napoleonic,Marbot%5B16%5D). The justification for Russian Cavalry Archers comes from their use by the nobility _ **and** _ their Tatar auxiliaries. Now it seems like they’re ignoring the latter by shifting the focus entirely to the Cavalry Archers of the [Landed Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landed_Army) commanded by the nobles. - _Boyars_ now affects Cavalry Archers instead of Streltsy - Tatar Loyalist is renamed to Dvoryanin - The _Landed Gentry_ card that enables them early is themed after the Landed Army of the nobility There’s nothing wrong with referencing things like that, but I don’t see the need to do that at the expense of referencing the Tatars in their armies. True, there are now cards like _Bashkir Rebellion_ and _Kalmuks_ that reference those guys, but that was there all along in the old church techs. Overall, I think the renaming of Tatar Loyalist to Dvoryanin is okay since it gives some consistency with the reworked _Boyars_ card, but they could throw the Tatars a bone and at least give them a reference in the early Cavalry Archers card by calling it _Tatar Yoke_ instead of _Landed Gentry_. [Next page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/problematic-russian-changes/236450.md?page=2)