The IO is officially a “worker” so might as well consider it a special villager.
change tax collection to automatic
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How about farms place around granaries get a discount, 75W → 45W
my idea is that the village always offers 40 of population, comparing with the other civilizations the saving is the following: 4 houses are 200 of wood, the adlea costs 125 of wood, therefore the saving is 75 of wood (remove the population limit of 40)
The return time of China’s unique technology is too slow and requires high demand conditions; the tax system cannot be collected as long as it is far away from the TC, and buildings such as the Palace, Imperial College, and Great Wall Gate are weaker than landmarks of other civilizations. Imperial officials seem to have many abilities, but supervision is only useful early on. The tax system makes it difficult for players to estimate the amount of gold income, and it can only be used as auxiliary income after all. China started to be powerful in the Age of Empires, but by then it was too late, why should players use China, a civilization that took so long to become powerful, if the player could win faster with other simpler civilizations?
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What you said is precisely portrayed by this graph. We understand that dev what civs to have power strikes and designed China to be OP late game. However, how do you benefit from late game advantages when the avg game length is around 25 minutes, and when the civ win rate is sub 40% by 20 min and gg called by 25 min mark ?
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China isn’t changing… the statistic doesn’t support it being a weaker civ; the averages from gold+ is 50+ with highest rates having it at TOP 3 win rates…sigh
I still hope granaries buff is fixed so it doesn’t need to be stacked and maybe cheapen the granary a bit… also a ming dynasty semi expensive tech for auto tax would be neat!
Lastly if they address the issue with MAA in feudal with a proper counter… china will be top 3 civ behind mongols and french; period!! QUOTE ME!!
first off nobody that is serious SERIOUSLY plays quick search anymore. secondly why would you include 1100 elo???
You reckon gold level players are not a good representation of the player base right? At this level it is more about skills and talents than civs.
Similar to plastic low elo players, in a way that these are the extreme ends and thus doesn’t have much representation power.
This is why you should never use golden league’ results to judge civ balance or you might end up analyze beastyqt games vs a random top 100th player and conclude that all civs are balanced when beastyqt uses them.
On the other hand, 1100 ELO is pretty much above average fyi
The game should NEVER be balanced around the “average” player, b/c the average play doesn’t have a strong control of the game hence why the majority of the player base is in the bronze level in ranks and around 1k elo… So showing civ win rates around the average range just shows what the average find easier than others hence why you see the ez civs up top and the harder ones lower and lower.
The average players are smart enough to learn build orders and strategies to win. As long as one understands the goals and the mechanics within the game and the civs one’s playing, they are qualified enough. Take Spirit of the law for example, an average player with a deep understanding of the game mechanics and balance.
You don’t have to be like Serral, Maru or a professional gamer to be qualified to play this game. Neither does it take a PhD degree to understand that some civs are OP and some civs are UP, not as hard as you made it out to be.
the Rank win rates suggest something very different from what you’re saying about the average player. And again if you tune the game for the average player you’ll end up with major imbalances at the decent to high levels of the game.
PUP will be here soon, hopefully this month.
Been while since read these forums but anyhow lets see what you came up
Good start, but what if user goes to song → ming → yuan ? This change essentially makes it most cost effective to do the cheapest first which is bad change. Could be avoided by allowing china change dynasty via UI with X amount of cooldown if the dynasty is already unlocked.
As someone that plays solely 2v2 and only China. Imperial palace is go to landmark for me in everygame. I only get clockwork once I go to Yuan after I get Ming and this only if game happens to drag that long which isnt that common.
Don’t know 1v1, but in 2v2 where I play fast castle every game, getting this lets me stay extra safe from any raids and also because maps are now smaller it means I get greater vision of map helping to know what enemy is up to and because I use pro scouts and only making 2 scouts im quite limited with the scouting. I don’t see clockwork as useful anymore since they removed ability to supervise it. Takes too long to get any meaningful amount of anything and if you lose some then its huge loss. Top of that now that siege moves slower than tortoise its just easier to maneuver around them so for me it lost too much value. But sure why not xD
So you want China to keep micro managing all the IO’s and building keeps or outposts next to every resource location? Meh sry but sounds bad idea. I do agree that taxes need to be fixed but I don’t think this is good solution. Taxes should become completely automated at later age because every game China losses thousands to tens of thousands gold from taxes and top of that those golds can be lost if resource building is destroyed. Why not change delhi upgrades to be tied to blacksmith and if its destroyed then delhi has to start from scratch? Its same thing.
Usefulness gets less useful but that also depends how you place your simcity and place things. I got usually all my production withing range of IA and mills or granary too which means its beneficial still. But the issue here is that its not really beneficial anymore at the point when you get IA. Its not like other civs that can create unlimited amount of stuff vs China can only have 4 because when you place your IA you either got 1-3 IO’s out and its like whats the point of this? It would only help you if you happen to lose IO to raid but otherwise its very minimal affect. I wouldn’t complain if it was like this but not really that impactful
1 Like
I like the dynasty swap function on a 4 min cooldown to avoid abuse.
I proposes auto tax collection via yuan dynasty. All building auto collects stored taxes. And yuan dynasty unlocks 2 more Imperial officials. Lastly restore fire lancer splash damage to 100% charge damage within the full impact zone.
Hey appreciate your thoughts, I’ve been thinking over this post and everyone’s comments for about a month now.
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I’m sorry I’m a bit confused over “cost effective to do the cheapest first”? Because in the current state of the game a China player always goes Song (the cheapest) first. Not to mention the current bonuses of the dynasties steer the player toward the Song - Yuan - Ming route anyway so let’s reinforce this and make that pathway more viable. If a player wishes to do Song - Ming - Yuan that’s still a very heavy resource investment which also wouldn’t be as efficient (which means more risky and/or slower) as going Song - Yuan - Ming since 30% of 1800 resources is 540 resources saved as opposed to saving 1080 resources from getting a 30% discounted Ming (assuming China player went Song & Yuan first).
I see the stacked percentage discounts as a balanced way (I do not want to see a 25-30% all around cost to all dynasty landmarks as I’ve seen in other suggestion buffs for China) as this would allow a player to reach Song in crazy fast timings which can lead to a huge economic snowball effect from that villager production discount. I believe this is the best balanced way to mitigate the current problems of dynasties either not being worth the resource cost or being unable to spare 1800+ resources in a game. -
I’ve taken back this suggestion for the landmark. I agree with you in its current usefulness being good enough. I believe that buff would either be too strong given that China can build every landmark and would get half of those landmarks at a discount (assuming the dynasty landmark suggestions pulls through which is what I really want). Leave the Imperial Palace as is would be my vote.
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This is where I disagree with you most. There’s many points I want to touch on so bear with me. Yes I do think the IO “micromanaging” should stay, because China is meant to be a difficult but rewarding civilization. They have 3 out of 3 stars (should really be 4 out of 3 lol) in difficulty on the ‘Civilizations’ in-game menu for a reason. Taxes are a completely free resource, you as a player don’t have to do anything to get all this free gold which as you said climbs to the thousands if not tens of thousands in free gold. IOs already collect and drop off tax automatically so there’s no “micromanaging” to do with that. Assuming my other core request of granting 1 IO per dynasty achieved (which is an insanely strong ability that I’m a little nervous about Pandora-boxing) then that means by Ming dynasty you at least have 5 IO running around if not 6 or 7 depending on if Song & Yuan were built before going into Ming. There’s plenty of spare IO to walk around an collect tax.
“Building keeps and outposts next to every resource location” To answer this please think about when you even go into Ming; what’s the state of the game like between you and your opponent? If you’re going into Ming that means the game as gone very late, and you’re probably in a bit of a stalemate but have plenty of resources in the bank right? Late game fights are very often about map & resource control, who controls the last few Gold Mines? The Stone Quarries? Who controls the last remaining woodline(s)? Whoever controls those spots has the means of production to keep grinding the opponent down to finally break the stalemate and win the game. So why wouldn’t you want to fortify those critical spots on the map? You see this in casted games all the time, gold mines being protected by keeps and outposts to solidify map control for example. What I’m aiming to achieve with this change and all my changes really, are synergy. I want these changes to make the China bonuses to feel more natural and useful. By the time Ming dynasty is under way, you’re already building these keeps and outposts to protect those resources far from the home base, so why not make that map control even more worthwhile by going into a dynasty to collect that sweet sweet tax just sitting there not even being collected? Ming is meant to be the stalemate breaker, this change would further highlight that role. -
I’ve also renounced this change as I believe it’s simply too strong. We’ve already seen how strong HRE got just from simply spawning with a prelate. Going Imperial Academy to get that tax bonus alongside training 4 IO ? No way, my changes are to make China viable, to keep their identity as the hardest and most complex civilization. I’m not trying to make China overpowered or busted.
I’m assuming from your lack of comment that you agree with my +1 IO build limit per dynasty achieved?
After looking at these suggestions and everyone’s comments my core changes I want to see implemented are: Dynasty Landmark percentage stacking
Ming Dynasty Outpost & Keep tax collection
IO build limit +1 per Dynasty achieved
Thanks for reading my thoughts, let’s keep this discussion going! I’m loving everyone’s feedback and suggestions! Really helps refine my thoughts for what China needs!
Hey man!
The most cost effective route with your suggestion is to go the cheapest first. So song → yuan → ming like you said. If the discount is given for each dynasty then it means any alternative path is not balanced. Maybe it could work and be balanced, but getting 30% discount for Ming is lot vs 20%
Im not saying micro managing IO should go away but later stages of game (mid and late game) its not something that should be part of chinese kit. There is too many things to focus and if china has to focus on micro managing multiple IO’s to fully optimize the trait then they will chose not to because its too taxing.
Tax collection should become easier or be completely automated at imperial age. Early game is completely fine because the reward is there and its not like you need to control multiple groups of units and multitask in multiple fronts. If IO becomes part of later stages of game then it will require lot more from player for less impactful reward vs early micro management. Getting 40 or 80 gold from tax collection is very low priority in late game when player has to do more important tasks.
But I do agree that the taxing needs addressing because its not utilized at later stages as effectively but once again making player to spent their apm to manage it at multiple fronts is too much for the reward it contains. If you could collect all the taxes at once at imperial then sure this suggestion is decent, but if its 40/80 gold every 15 seconds then no, we deserve better.
I actually laughed and died inside when I saw the patch notes. So HRE was collecting less resources than other civs which I don’t think is true. Its kind of same level change when they buffed Delhi + Abbassid with berries etc when delhi was the strongest civ by far. Laughed my ass off.
Im not exactly sure how I feel about increasing number of IO’s. It becomes another delhi then. Maybe have IO limit still 4 but get upgrades from each dynasty / age up to improve IO’s. For example as of rn if IO takes dmg its permanent and they’re too squishy. Most effective raiding against china isn’t killing villagers but killing IO especially thanks now that they butchered IO to ground which makes it even juicier target. Having upgrades like that allow them move faster, heal, collect more taxes just be superman IO’s, sky is just limit what they could do. Also increase of IO’s means more hotkeys needed for IO’s and more micro managing making civ harder. So I think limit 4 is good spot, but it still needs something to address issues.
One thing I wish they add is to add visual effect on buildings when they got 40 or 80 gold to be collected. Its just tedious and annoying to keep checking things early on and IO AI needs addressing also. Its just too stupid. Walks past TC or IA with 20 gold to pick another 20gold just to return. Have IA always return to TC/IA after picking gold if its closer than resource building or have setting which lets it always return after picking the gold or something