PuP experiences: So much overtuned stuff, so poorly distributed. Please do not let it go live like this

[hisovereign]

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1466860/discussions/9/3824163953438637463/

Here is all the change, it is still not final tho

1. Ghulam buff is good, i think it will go to 21 after all upgrade, something that can overcome heavy armor.

2. I think it is not worth to pick, unless you mass pike 20 NoB all at one in TG, i hope they make it 2 rocket, or just chnage it back to NoB discount as before PUP, they cost more gold already, where chinese is not trading civ.

3. Well, english and HRE late game MAA spam is a thing right? Can we get at leat our armor back? WoW, you hewr it HRE amd English Player, your MAA is stronger, but palace guard got nerfed.

4. Fire Lancer Change is good tho. I agree they are a bit too strong after spirit way

5. Hey, read all the change, no more Barbican or Kremlin Rush, and i actually like it, hope it will attract more player.

[loki125]

rip BBQ and kremlin rush

[hisovereign]

Well, atleast they can revert the barnucan garrison nerf as it is can’t be dropped near opponent’s TC

[loki125]

true, thatt is also bad for NOB and palace guards, make them not worth the cost
they should revert NOB from before the pup when cost were reduced and giving back their 2 additional barrels, or if they want nerf it they could make the astronomical clocktower being able to be supervised by the IO

[hisovereign]

I think buffing chiese early defense is far more important than buffing i’ts late game. Especially after zhuge nu food increased, barbican rush deleted, and other civ feudal power buffed. I’m pretty fine with the late game nerf as long as they buff the feudal defense.

[asdqews]

The cost change of ### ### be a typo. I tested it in PUP live, seems all other changes took effect except the one related to cost. Afterall it do seem pretty radiculous to increase it to 300/500. It’s still a nerf to NoB because the cost reduction (25%) is gone, but the damage output only increased by 12.5%.

[KnowingLamb8370]

Guys ghazi raiders and sipahi arent that stronger their stat may seem to be increased but its actually a nerf it will drag them down because those units cost too much and they have no armor like man at arms or knights.Maybe only sipahi wont drag the ottomans because of millitary schools.
Barbican and kremlin rush stil viable you can built it near the enemy gold mine but you cant build them next to the enemy town center

[loki125]

true point, they could buff chinese units in age to be able to defend against MAA,
if they keep going to nerf china it will became the worst civ with too expansive units for not much

[Jaysus04]

@Doeswegotta

In your definition of overtuned is included;

An age 3 unit on a civ who’s biggest hurdle is getting past age 2. Yes the Ghulam is objectively stronger than a baseline maa - but it still loses to its counters, and costs +25% for what it does.

A nerf for the dps of an expensive unit that is easily countered by 2 common units in age 2 - just ask to rescale the attack delay.

Nerf to that stats of a unit which gained +33% stats in exact proportion to a 33% higher cost.

The problem with the Ghulam lies in the lategame scaleability. They have way more hp than MAA. And Abbasids have boot camp. So their melee inf gets 35% more hp. On a unit like the Ghulam that leads to 310 hp fully upgraded. Combine that with camel support and you have a 310 hp 10/10 armor frontline of immortals. Lategame is the issue with this unit.

For the Ghazi Raider I didn’t really suggest nerfs. Keep the stats, but take away the anti range bonus and give Delhi their normal horsemen back. So the Ghazi Raider would be an extra unit with the sole purpose to be fielded against armored early game masses and can later be combined with Horsemen as well. Since Delhi upgrades are free, I don’t see too many issues in that regard. That way the Delhi player needs to choose or combine its counters. Otherwise they can simply go Ghazi against everything until there are mass spears, which you answer with your own archers.

My problem with the Ghazi Raider is that he can be built against somewhat anything and you’re still okay. It’s a trash unit in the end.

[Jaysus04]

The problem with Palace Guards is that they are too fast. I would have liked a nerf to either Yuan or their speed instead of a cost increase. They can run into your eco mid castle and you can’t catch them. They just kill all your vils. And their -1/1 armor does nothing here.

[hisovereign]

Well, if you don’t care about historical issue, just swap ming and yuan bonus, that way, the movement spped bonus only occur in late imperial where you SHOULD have stone wall and fortification (unless you’re mongol or rus, or just completely noob) that way, blazing speed palacevm guard and fire lancer don’t just sniping off so many ecos and buildings, and make you can counter it with knight in castle

[CRothlisberger]

@hisovereign

just swap ming and yuan bonus, that way, the movement spped bonus only occur in late imperial

You can already do ming or yuan in either order.

[hisovereign]

Well, but the movement speed won’t kick in as fast, as ming require 7200 compared to yuan 3600 resources, by that time chinese player reach ming for movement speed, you should have some fortification already

[HaleTortoise579]

Splitting the ghazi raider into a seperate unit in addition to horsemen might actually be much stronger present tho. Its like having the benefit of ghazis but the offset of the cost is kinda undecut when you can default to basic horsemen whenever practical. I like the general idea tho, but itd need some reworks to balance the ghazi in that case - trade the ranged armor to melee or smth.

As for abbasid, I’ve known about the camel/maa combo for some time now. The recent change is putting it close to wynguard footman levels of bs, but you gotta remember that the increase in cost really matters alot when you look at how that effects thier performance vs thier counters. Compared to before the change Ghulams are actually more vulnerable to things like xbows and handcannons in the end. Pop efficiency for cost efficiency. Its a bit painful in age 3, especially considering it isnt any easier to get that far.

[loki125]

in your opinion for season 5 what will be the next strongest civ ?

[hisovereign]

Ottoman in feudal looks good, and that imam healing in imperial, it is 4 HP/sec always on not stopped by enganging in battle, i wonder how good it is with jans and mehter.

Mongols trade and keshik looks good too

Chinese in TG if they can reach Ming maybe have a chance to become the best. The grens is now pretty good.

English King play to knight and longbows seems very good too.

[loki125]

i tried the new keshik its a good unit especially with healing on raiding, i’m afraid for what they will nerf on china, but the pup is not the definitive update so maybe there will be some new changes

[hisovereign]

Well, beasty always want to nerf chinese tho. And devs will always listen to him, more to anyone else

Dev can swap ming and yuan bonus to delay palace guard power spike when they get that movement speed, lots of chinese player also prefer yuan bonus to ming bonus tho, so swapping them actually quite helpdul when someone need both imperial palace for raiding and Clocktower for siege Workshop

Dev can also make PG cost more gold and less food to nerf i’ts post Imperial age spam, but make it stronger in castle, something like 80f 30g will be good, or make it cost even more gold, but give it the 1/1 they lack, like 80f 40g, make it more like a knight, strong in castle but can’t be spammed when gold is out, remember that in S5, zhuge nu actually can be massed with no gold miner as it only cost 20g, so maybe stopping PG post imp spam, while giving it a new way to deal with MAA spam (zhuge in imperial is quite good after spirit way and incendiary arrow) so maybe zhuge horsemenor zhuge spear in post-imp will be a thing.

NoB shoot 2 more rocket definitely a buff in post imp when you maxed out your supply, and it will effect ### ### created before in castle unlike the old tech, but increasing the cost and halving the effect… I don’t know if it still count as a buff

Fire Lancer nerf is fine i think, 34 fire damage is still decent compared to 20 torch damage normal imperial age unit has, definitely need to be more than 30, or warrior scout will be better than fire lancer for sniping as it has more speed, regen, and far far cheaper (with griot bara they have 30 torch damage)

Imperial Palace and Spirit way buff is good, it mean taxed granaries (well chinese always have proxy farm when possible, right?) And proxy wood camp.

Grenadier is fine, those who said it is OP maybe don’t know that HC, mangonels, great bombard, elephant, longbow, sipahi, javelin thrower, and streltsy exist.

Maybe give chinese starting imperial official? HRE got prelate and they can go aachen so fast, garrison the prelate inside, and boom… Everything goes smoothly. Starting IO is enough i think to speed up chinese’s tempo to better defend against new feudal powerhouse.

[loki125]

i am totally agree with you to have china starting with an imperial official because hre start with 1 prelat they doesn’t have to spend gold for it, and china have nothing to defend against their MAA spam from hre, but yet they give delhi a new unit

[hisovereign]

Of course it mean that china start with -100f and -50g, because HRE start with -100g, the point is, it open more strategy like doubles scout etc, and you’re not down one villager by doing so, and it also delays chinese dock quite a bit balancing it on water or hybrid map where chinese is OP on.