Rathas seriously need a buff

[SMUM15236]

That can work. But this will limit Bengalis option only to their UU Ratha. I think people will barely use EA and Xbow. And Bengalis already lacks good option. My proposal of early access to PT essentially does the same thing but with a price.

@StarPeach703575

No it need similar amount of upgrade for ranged rathas.

Ratha upgrade cost = 6915 resources.
Ratha without melee attack = 5925 resources
HCA upgrade cost = 5675 resources
Mangudai upgrade cost = 5500 resources
Conquistador upgrade cost = 3100 resources
WW upgrade cost = 4275 resources

Even for ranged upgrades, cost is nowhere to similar. Maybe you should focus on cost instead of number of upgrades.

@Pulikesi25

It was definitely necessary to push from there. Why else would a 2500+ player loses 20 vills to a forward castle in tournament finals.

I disagree. He doesn’t have that much experience on big tournaments and he tilted.
Edit : Also he wasted resources on upgrading militia into LS and 2 armors but trained 0. That was also a bad move. BE was a perfect response on that match-up. You can blame BE for not being able to useful enough even in only 1v1 situation where BE is supposed to be good. But it was not Bengalis fault to lose the game.

@casusincorrabil

what could be wrong with a unit with +6/+8 P armor?

It will be +7/+10. In total 9/11 armor.

@Martinurello

Or base ratha could have less armor to compensate.

Very bad idea. They already are the most expensive (I’m not sure tbh) unit to upgrade.

@casusincorrabil

I think the biggest issue with bengalis is that they have that 4 different units they can go for, but basically no “comp” that is affordable if you don’t get a advantage that gives you a clear edge over the opponent.

Exactly. On paper they have great option and I deceived by that for a while. I even argued that their tech tree is versatile. After 2-3 months I realized how wrong I was.

@casusincorrabil

Arbs
Eles
EA
Ratha

All are strong, but there’s no composition you can really aim for.

This is also the reason I suggested a trash bonus for them at first. Let them have a gold+trash unit composition. I asked 20% HP for spearman and skirmishers. Maybe we can change one of their bonus.

Monk +3/+3 armor → Spearman, Skirmisher and Monk +20% HP
Lithuanians vibe with Elephants replacing cavalry. And no gunpowder.

[Pulikesi25]

@SMUM15236

I disagree. He doesn’t have that much experience on big tournaments and he tilted.

How can you say that the player that won 3-1 against Daut and 4-3 against RBW-L champion Tatoh doesn’t have that much experience? All this shows is you don’t know any closed map players. Some players like Dracken, Running, Modri are top-tier closed map players but not top-16 on open or hybrid maps. And hence don’t make it into S-Tier events most of the times but they make it into semis or atleast quarter finals on most closed map tourneys.

@SMUM15236

Monk +3/+3 armor → Spearman, Skirmisher and Monk +20% HP
Lithuanians vibe with Elephants replacing cavalry. And no gunpowder.

If this actually came in, once again after 2-3 months you’ll realize how useless this is for Bengalis. First of all 20% extra hp is too little and one of the worst bonuses on spear/skirm. Secondly, the trash bonus works great for Lithuanians because its a nice option to accompany their extra attack knights while facing some strong Camels or CA army.
Hypothetically if Bengalis had some strong military option to tech into eventually, you can use monks and trash units to defend until that point. Otherwise it will be a decent option in some matchups on closed maps but the large weakness of Bengalis will remain as it is.

@casusincorrabil

Arbs
Eles
EA
Ratha

Arbs lack thumb ring and the rest of the options aren’t strong.

@casusincorrabil

All are strong, but there’s no composition you can really aim for.

Leitis, Mangudai, War wagon, Janissary, Conqs are strong. Obuchs, Coustillier, Chakram throwers are strong enough for their cost. Rathas, Elephant units are neither strong nor cost efficient. They’re just passive/closed map TG units. Its ok to have these unit aside knights, ca like the ROR civs. But can’t replace those units.

[SMUM15236]

@Pulikesi25

How can you say that the player that won 3-1 against Daut and 4-3 against RBW-L champion Tatoh doesn’t have that much experience? All this shows is you don’t know any closed map players. Some players like Dracken, Running, Modri are top-tier closed map players but not top-16 on open or hybrid maps. And hence don’t make it into S-Tier events most of the times but they make it into semis or atleast quarter finals on most closed map tourneys.

Add Johnslow. Correct me if I’m wrong, it was Running’s first ever major tournament final. That’s why I said he lacks experience. I don’t consider that match was a civ win.

@Pulikesi25

If this actually came in, once again after 2-3 months you’ll realize how useless this is for Bengalis.

We will see. At least xbow-pike will be a good composition for them to aim for instead of being clueless in Castle Age.

@Pulikesi25

Secondly, the trash bonus works great for Lithuanians because its a nice option to accompany their extra attack knights while facing some strong Camels or CA army.

They will be more like an weaker Vikings than Lithuanians tbh. Just the bonus is somewhat similar to Lithuanians on paper. Vikings is top 10 Arabia civ while Bengalis hopefully will have 46%-47% W/R in Arabia.

@Pulikesi25

Rathas are neither strong nor cost efficient.

Their base stats is very poor in attack department. They desperately need attack bonus vs spearman to have a cost effective trade against at least one trash counter by micro. I’d rather prefer attack over bonus damage reduction for them.

[StarPeach703575]

Anyway, Bengalis picked regularly in the closed map tournament, and in some water maps. Daut already showed great play by Bengalis to destroy Strongest civ in Arena (Turks). However, I see first time these days Burmese appeared in the tournament (after Arambai nerf).

The fact that Bengalis regularly picked in some settings actually show that they have some place in the game. Individual game cannot justify something is wrong or broken. If Rathas are that bad Villese would never tried to train them like Liereyy never tried to train Arambai in that game. I think that game is more like the potential of Burmese on closed map were underestimated and Liereyy showed amazing management of late game. Not something like Bengalis and Rathas are too weak.

By the way some civs never showed in recent tournament such as Celts, Goths, Vietnamese, and Burmese/Persians (Only picked by Liereyy or by Daut trying TC douching). I think these civs are power creeped and/or particularly weak vs DLC civs. I think these civs are actually need more attention to buff. But people biased toward new civs and requesting to buff them because they think new civs should be better than other civs.

[casusincorrabil]

I think bengali EA + Monk play is quite strong.
If you have the eco you can even go EA + Eles.
But you need to make it work fast cause it will burn through your gold pretty fast.

@StarPeach703575

If Rathas are that bad Villese would never tried to train them

I don’t think you can make that conclusion. It’s also less about how good rathas are but rather what you do when the opponent counters your ratha, what’s your followup?
Rathas besides I think they are not the arena type unit have the disadvantage that it’s really expensive to go for them. Archers are way cheaper to go for and would allow you to transition to any of the 3 other power units of bengalis especially as you already have a unit out that is good vs monks. And Burmese lacking that archer armor. In my opinion going archers would have been the strategically better option here.

[Pulikesi25]

@SMUM15236

Add Johnslow.

He’s more of a clown strategist (monk rush, castle drop into quick imp etc) on Arena. But not at the level of these players.

@SMUM15236

Correct me if I’m wrong, it was Running’s first ever major tournament final.

He was also Master of circus 2 finalist, semifinalist in Lords of Arena, lost 3-2 to Valas in the last round of T90 Titans Gold league (qualified to play in Platinum league season 2)

@SMUM15236

They will be more like an weaker Vikings than Lithuanians tbh

Exactly and a much weaker one on open maps.

@SMUM15236

Vikings is top 10 Arabia civ while Bengalis hopefully will have 46%-47% W/R in Arabia.

46% is still a bottom-5. But I guess that’s ok if they also get gunpowder, Ratha buff and become a 50+% win rate closed map civ.

@StarPeach703575

Anyway, Bengalis picked regularly in the closed map tournament

Master of circus 2 they were picked at a stage after Bohemians, Turks, Aztecs, Teutons, Burgundians, Britons were all globally banned because they were overpicked. 6 civs globally unavailable and 2 bans per player (4 total) and 12 civs drafted. Wallhala they were pretty much used only in Regicide fortress where its mostly pure boom. All that means is Bengalis are a mid-tier closed map civ.

@StarPeach703575

Daut already showed great play by Bengalis to destroy Strongest civ in Arena (Turks).

It was just a lack of preparation and a terrible move from Jordan to put the castle right next to Daut’s walls. A couple of tiles behind and Daut’s monks could not have delayed it for so long by staying inside the walls. Its not a great play or anything of that sort from Daut in that game. Great play is the Khmer vs Byzantine game against Jordan, Persians vs Khmer game against Viper on Border dispute. This one he just took and kept the advantage from Jordan’s mistake.

@StarPeach703575

The fact that Bengalis regularly picked in some settings actually show that they have some place in the game.

The fact is water maps are rarely played and even there this civ is just “usable” and not top-tier. Water play is limited in terms of possibilities and less than 1% of the community plays water. And even then, the strong water civs like Italians, Vikings are usable on a variety of maps. Bengalis is just water and Regicide fortress. In tournaments without these maps, they are never used. They were never picked in RMS Cup 2 or Titans league, picked exclusively on Northern Isles in RBW. That’s just abysmal.

@StarPeach703575

If Rathas are that bad Villese would never tried to train them like Liereyy never tried to train Arambai in that game. I think that game is more like the potential of Burmese on closed map were underestimated and Liereyy showed amazing management of late game. Not something like Bengalis and Rathas are too weak.

Nope. Liereyy didn’t go for Arambai since he knows how weak they are after the nerf and he did’nt have to make Arambai when he sees only Rathas and light cav. Villese went for Rathas because he did 2 defensive castles and also Rathas were supposed to be the meta unit for the civ. Only problem is they’re terribly weak.

@StarPeach703575

By the way some civs never showed in recent tournament such as Celts, Goths, Vietnamese, and Burmese/Persians (Only picked by Liereyy or by Daut trying TC douching). I think these civs are power creeped and/or particularly weak vs DLC civs.

All of those are generally weak civs which are good on niche settings as well. Weak but still a lot better than Bengalis. Persians on four lakes, Nomad and ###### potential maps. Celts black forest, Goths socotra etc.

@StarPeach703575

I think these civs are actually need more attention to buff.

These civs ALSO need attention to buff.

@StarPeach703575

But people biased toward new civs and requesting to buff them because they think new civs should be better than other civs.

What’s the point of releasing new civs if they are meant to be unusable, mediocre and subpar to old civs in all the settings?

[SirWiedreich]

@SMUM15236

That can work. But this will limit Bengalis option only to their UU Ratha. I think people will barely use EA and Xbow. And Bengalis already lacks good option.

EA is already probably their best option, and early PT will incentivize EAs as much or more than Rathas, which I don’t think is needed. IMO Bengali EAs are already the aspect of Bengalis that’s most nearly in a good place - what’s missing is other good military options and/or a stronger early eco. I think extending their 25% resistance to Rathas would put them roughly on par with EAs as far as viability, but BEs are another matter. If Rathas are going to get used more at all, they probably need to be better right out of the gate, not after paying a large part of the 6915 resources you referred to (even if they get one or more techs early). As it is, they can already hit-and-run pikes (although not optimally), but even in switching to melee to fight skirms, they take a lot of damage from them. If I were to pick 1 unit that they’d be stronger against, I’d choose skirms over pikes, but then again, why not both (and camels, huskarls, etc) with the extension of the 25% civ bonus.

@SMUM15236

Monk +3/+3 armor → Spearman, Skirmisher and Monk +20% HP

Would much rather keep the armor (strong monk bonus) than lose it for a weak trash and weak monk bonus. I’m open to some kind of trash bonus for them, but more HP is much worse than higher attack or lower cost. Then again, Bengalis seem to be intended as a civ with a powerful, pop-efficient gold (and food) heavy comp, so I think we could explore more options to make BE, (possibly EA), and Ratha more viable. If that can be achieved, they probably don’t need a trash bonus.

[SMUM15236]

@SirWiedreich

they probably need to be better right out of the gate, not after paying a large part of the 6915 resources you referred to (even if they get one or more techs early).

The problem is not the huge upgrade cost imo. Problem is power difference between Castle and Imperial Age is huge. 4 PA difference is no joke. I’m trying to minimize the difference by early PT which also grants +2 attack vs spearman. So power difference in attack department also minimized and Castle Age Ratha (and EA) are stronger. While keeping the Imperial Age power as same. But tbh, their Imperial without gunpowder, not that good after all. So I’m open for a permanent buff even if it makes their late game stronger. They won’t be OP/broken in late game anyway.

@SirWiedreich

Then again, Bengalis seem to be intended as a civ with a powerful, pop-efficient gold (and food) heavy comp, so I think we could explore more options to make BE, (possibly EA), and Ratha more viable.

I remember @Pulikesi25 proposed extending HP regeneration to elephant units and changing Dravidians useless UT to more useful one. Although I’m sure bonus damage reducing, faster firing and HP regenerating elephants (especially BE) will be heavily criticized by TG and close map players.

[SirWiedreich]

@SMUM15236

Problem is power difference between Castle and Imperial Age is huge.

Yes, and that coincides with my point of them not providing enough value before you’ve reached a critical mass of both upgrades and units (and even then not being so hard to counter). Early techs are an improvement, but they still represent an up-front investment before I would consider the unit good/viable. (I also think the Paikz tech is bad for the same reason that many people think the Persian Mahouts tech is bad, when the faster attack/accuracy could just be built into Ratha or Elite Ratha). As it is, the Bengalis are weak in Castle Age and are in a position where they almost need Rathas to perform comparably to Mangudai or even Conqs, but they clearly don’t.

@SMUM15236

But tbh, their Imperial without gunpowder, not that good after all. So I’m open for a permanent buff even if it makes their late game stronger. They won’t be OP/broken in late game anyway.

Yeah, Rathas are a decent lategame unit, but far from being dominant in the way that Mangudai, Camel Archers, War Wagons, etc are. And Bengalis have a strong lategame, but considering their perpetual food/gold dependence and weakness to trash, it’s far from overpowered.

@SMUM15236

Although I’m sure bonus damage reducing, faster firing and HP regenerating elephants (especially BE) will be heavily criticized by TG and close map players.

IMO Bengalis have enough civ-specific buffs for BEs - they’re more or less tied with Khmer for the top spot, and better in many situations - any further elephant viability buffs should be at the unit level (possible speed increase, reduced bonus damage, etc, as discussed in other threads).

[Davyman3583]

@Pulikesi25

stop watching these Mikeempires videos to judge a unit. The real game fights never happen like that. In game, there’s a 40-50 min period to get to Elite uu with all upgrades on all open.

Maybe stop doing that yourself because apparently you know the outcome better than I do (I don’t even bother watching that stuff). I had that matchup multiple times and ratha absolutely kill mangudai. Besides have way better stats for ranged engagement bengali have way better eco which gives them a huge edge against mongols in imp.

Adding light cav/hussar doesn’t change the outcome. Slight shift towards mongols bc of mangudai higher dps vs cav but not nearly enough to compensate. Siege ram also helps but rathas can be put into melee mode to take them down more quickly. They have high pierce armor so they tank quite a lot if shots from mangudai.

Ofc mangudai hussar has their advantages over bengalis comp especially on open maps. But there’s no denial that when it comes to less mobile ranged units comp bengalis have the upper hand. It’s similar to turks vs mongols where in a straight up fight hussar ca completely obliterates hussar mangudai (turks are even better here ofc).

@Pulikesi25

Wallhala they were pretty much used only in Regicide fortress where its mostly pure boom. All that means is Bengalis are a mid-tier closed map civ.

After players figured out bengalis is the best RF civ they were selected or banned in basically any set. How are you supposed to see them on other maps then? Btw they were selected in earlier stages on other maps when people were playing monks.

Also that argument makes zero sense. Gurjaras you only saw on one map (forget the name, the one with the priests) with very few exceptions, means they are midtier? Byzantines you saw mostly on hideout. Except for the top dogs like turks bohemians burgundians most civs excel in one specific map so it only makes sense to see em there. Doesn’t mean they are simply average on others. Heck even poles were mostly seen on hideout although they are arguably top 5 on closed maps.