Reducing range of all bombard cannon to balance them from trebuchets or (suggestions)

Ever tried to read at least the main topic? Cavs, while they are good can be countered by the box formation of pikemans/halbs because the cavs don’t have any bonus against bombards and deal the normal amount - melee armor.
You don’t throw your bombard ahead and pray that it kills enemy’s siege/units or building. You protect it.
The only way to effectively counter bombard balancing every counter is with another bombard.

You have many bombards, I have many trebs. I win. You try to come too close, maybe I have an onager or two just at the base of the trebs, so when you try to come too close, I’ll come close too. Trebs will be shooting continuously and while they are inaccurate, in numbers they make hits. Bombards needs 3 hits on 1 treb, treb kills bombard if it hits, in one go. You see my onager moving you try to shoot the moving onager or try to flee. Trebs might still hit you while you’re at it… And fill the rest of the generic units in between for both sides and voila. Your bombards are good but not uncountered. Bombard even costs more than a treb so it’s easy to have an extra onager there and the rest of the units for both sides stay the same.

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yet you keep ignoring the fact that BBCs have lower range and players struggle to keep them alive because of that. Also trebs only miss against small buildings like houses, thats not even a relevant con, Go watch some pro play and see how treb wars are an inevitable event and BBCs are almost never seen and for a good reason

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Lol, a bunch of Capped Rams will win against a greater number of Bombards, as long as they have Spearmen inside.

And for a lower cos too.

I was trying to make a scenario where both sides have a proper army where the only difference being, bombard on the other side and treb on the other. And showing why the bombard isn’t an ultimate and uncounterable unit. But it still is a good unit. Just nothing to nerf on.

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Woa, speding 4x or more resources of a single treb to deal against bombard cannon in a 1 vs 1 where the gold is already scarce plus adding more cost for the onager (and its upgrade) is the perfect counter to them, not to consider that you need 4 castle to make it viable to outnumber the production of the bombards. Woa, thanks, solved everything! Perfectly balanced as everything should be.

Anyway you have to manually task trebs to attack bombards because they don’t focus on units or focus on the nearest unit if no building is available which won’t be the bombard. And even then, I’m not so sure because when the trebs misses, it misses by a pretty large range because it has only 15% accuracy.

How am I spending more resources on trebs than bombards? What single treb and bombard? Did you read at all what I said, I wasn’t comparing a 1on1 situation omg. Go and read again what I said and then reply again with some thought behind your post.

You will only need to task them a few times since the bombards will be in range first. Then you can focus on commanding your other units. If they move out of range, as they should, then you’d need to task them again later but notice how you are controlling the pace here, since you have the range.

Have you ever even done this before or not? Trebs have a good chance to hit when both sides have numbers, you’ll need to micro your bombards to evade just in case and cause of the inaccuracy of the treb, it might actually hit anyway.

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I feel the same. Please understand what i write. Bombard cannons have benefits, trebs have benefits. So both have also weak spots. That is called balance.

You know this logic is flawed? Just to let you know: Scouts are OP in feudal age. Scouts are normally countered by spearmans, but i will add archers to snipe the spearmans. So there is no counter against scouts, so you need to create your own scouts. That will be the only effectively counter to scouts. Please can you make a thread of nerfing scouts in feudal age, because they dont have any counter? Thanks.

Note: Please dont make the scout thread. It was about showing you the flawed logic.

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Because you can’t counter 1 vs 1 the bombard so even if the enemy makes just 1 or 2 you need to sped a ton for the trebuchet to be effective. According to my calculation around 12 trebuchet is needed for 99.2% accuracy.

The trebuchet doesn’t automatically engage into other units so you have to manually task if even 1 bombard goes out of los of trebuchet and enters again, something plausible because of its mobility.

That is the number i took from the wiki.

Man it keeps getting better (no)

The basic, obvious points that people who actually play the game know being already adressed, let’s focus on other details shall we?

Oh yeah, some sweet AoK balance where you would never see the unit. It would be just like removing them from the game in a majority of situations.

I’m afraid you arrived too late Increase movement speed of the spearman line

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But the thing here is that bombard brings all the benefits of the trebuchet without its cons. The huge range of the trebuchet isn’t needed because you can protect the bombards similarly to the trebuchet. The trebs tank better range but if you are in a position where the one tanking is the trebuchet, you are almost guaranteed to lose the trebuchet.

I add skirmish to be protected by spears in a box formation. Like cactus posted, to solve the scout issue, i proposed an increase in the spear man line speed.

Except it can’t be protected as well as a treb? The range is absolutely needed and you continue to ignore it as it deems you convenient

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Why can’t it be protected as well as a treb? It outranges fully upgraded castle (apart teutonics) meaning that it is not even sure you need to stay as far as possible. If you see enemy incoming, you can just retreat and advance your military line.

And everyone here is ignoring the fact that you need a castle to produce one while the other doesn’t need it so overall it becomes cheaper to get the bombard or produce enough trebs to use the hardform method (not tried to simulate). or have the siege unit where you want.

You will not see the benefits of the treb. That is another point. You understand the role of trebs is to destroy buildings, not to destroy units? Benefits of the treb is the longer range, so it can sit more behind an army and thus is more difficult to kill. Trebs also have much more HP, so if you wanna kill a treb it take much more hits before it is killed. So for civs with bombard cannons you have to choose:

  1. You go for trebs. They are a slow moving, tanky siege unit from a long distance.
  2. You go for bombard cannons. They are much more mobile, but also pretty fragile. As bonus they also counter siege.

Depending on the situation you can pick one of them. I have to say is prefer the mobile option too in most cases. As a personal preference. I could see other will pick trebs. I think it is just a fair choose on personal preferences. It is pretty balanced.

You really did propose a speed increase for spear line? I cant take it seriously…

You know part of the role of the bombard cannon is to counter siege? A treb is a siege unit.
A treb has not the role of counter to siege. So isnt meant to counter bombard cannons.
So the whole comparison between bombard cannon and treb as counters for each other is flawed logic.

I think many units counter bombard cannon 1v1. I would even go as far as saying every unit in barrack, stable or range can beat bombard cannons with proper micro. Also almost every UU will be a counter to bombard cannons.

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Because your protecting units are in range of the castle if they’re standing in front of the bombards. Sniping the bombard when it’s attacking buildings with ranged units is incredibly easy. Do you even play the game honestly

And the castle requirement argument doesn’t apply to trebs, it only applies to UUs because UUs need to be massed up and 1 castle doesn’t cut it for that. You hardly need more than 5 trebs and if you don’t have a single castle by imperial you’re losing because your base is much more prone to raids. No wonder you think hussar raiding is OP 11

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How do you need to spend a ton? 1 treb costs less than 1 bombard. You don’t need to build a castle anymore, you have one already. You don’t need 12 trebs. Even 3 in a good sized battle is plenty enough. The bombards need to get closer to you while exposing themselves to fire, before they can even fire. And you can use your other units to make them think again. It’s not uncounterable. But it still is useful too.

How hard is it for you to manually control the trebs then? It’s not too bad for me.

Bombard is the most expensive unit in the game. That’s enough balance for you.

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I am literally listing you the pros of the trebs but the few pros they have doesn’t matter if bombards have the same pros but also other bonuses that are huge and the ability to kill the treb.

Yeah, and this is probably my 3rd time repeating. Bombards can do the same. They can destroy buildings but also other things. The longer range is useless because the thing that counters the treb is a bombard cannon that can’t be easily reached by enemy because it has enough range to counter attack but stay safe, which shouldn’t be the case.

How can you call a trebuchet a tanky siege unit? It takes 3 hits from bombard cannons to destroy a trebuchet. Melee units kill it faster. It does have better hp but has worse melee armor than a bombard. Also a ram can reach it before it unpacks and a ram almost shots it.

What is the situation? When exactly is that you prefer a slow moving unit?

Also the bombard is a siege unit.

Again, calling for flawed logic. When you compare 2 things that have the same main role, then you compare pros and cons of them.

I also think many units counter trebuchet 1 vs 1. I would even go as far as saying every unit in barrack, stable of range can beat the trebuchet with no micro. Also, almost every UU will be a counter to a trebuchet.

Again. I never ever wrote the units protecting the bombard are standing near the castle or even in front of the bombards.

Yeah and if the trebuchet is alone, even sniping him is easy.

furthermore there is also the problem you mention. Build a trebuchet that takes a huge amount of time (usaully 2-3 uu units) or make the uu units/upgrade things in the castle. This problem doesn’t exist for bombard cannons.

@Hardform

yeah but i was talking about your strategy, don’t change points here. You have one that can easily be destroyed by a bombards. They don’t need to expose anything. You don’t mainly use trebuchet for defense, you use for attack meaning it has to come to you. In this case, it is protected by nothing. Even if it was protected by castle range, to attack your castle it has to come near your castle and it isn’t protected by castle range anymore for the bombards (mean while your bombard would be because you just need to move 4 tiles for it to reach the trebuchet given that the castle has 11 range, it is plenty enough)

The problem is again your strategy. You can manually control 3 trebs but those 3 trebs are really nothing against 3 bombards. If you make more, you have more chance to hit the bombards but it means you spent more than the other player.

How do they defend the bombard if they aren’t in front of it? How, if the enemy has trebs protecting their castle, do you intend to take that castle down? The enemy has the advantage in defending their trebs. Their units can be at the front while yours don’t. While the defender has the advantage of having their cavalry ready to move in whenever they feel like it, while also having the trebs constantly putting pressure on the bombards before the bombards are even shooting at the castle. And cause they aren’t 100% accurate, they might even hit while you are only moving towards the castle and they aimed where the unit was but the shot ends up where the bombard is going to shoot the castle from. Luck happens so much all the time.

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You can use it defensively, that’s a completely valid strat.

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