They can be. Bombard has the advantage, which is the point of the bombard (and it is also more expensive), but treb can also be totally successful here.
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Again, your strategy is viable when you spend a ton for trebuchets against bombards. Small numbers of trebuchets arenât gonna counter the bombards by attacking it. Luck happens but you donât factor it in a strategy game. Also I wrote it. You have 1 tile free from the bombard to the castle range and you see who is coming, when you see it, you forwards your units and get back the bombard.
Yes but you would need to put the trebuchet 1 tiles behind your own castle to protect yourself and attack safely. While the enemy can produce one trebuchet and destroy your castle, even if he has bombards.
No, the probability says they fail. Luckily if it happens 1/1000 case, it doesnât matter.
You do factor luck in completely, especially when empirical data shows that luck is actually pretty great. Unlike your calculations.
- The bombards will be dead before the treb finishes the castle. And then you can just treb the treb. You donât need to keep them 1 tile back if you donât like. You already have the advantage cause you have 4 tiles to engage the bombards before they can even come to the castle. While you with the trebs have better knowledge of the enemy movements, you can make it so that you send your cavalry for example towards the bombards, then they fall back and you fall back with your cavalry. And you can do that on and on. But the trebs keep firing. Understand? You can also have an onager there, the bombards will have to run away from it or try to shoot it, if they stop to shooting at it, they might lose one or two already to trebs and onager is worth less.
How many games have you played if you really come here and tell me a 1/1000 probability, that is nowhere near realistic and you even should know it yourself and still use such an exaggerated number as support for your argument?
Edit: Iâm off to sleep now, back to you tomorrow.
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They have to if you wanna protect them, a simple charge can sweep down bombards, archers snipe them easily
Itâs not, itâs much bulkier and they usually are in the shadow of a castle.
Youâre missing the part that you are not going to rush anyone with bombard cannons because chemistry is expensive and takes time, only Turks and I guess Malians are the exception. People rush to imp because castle drop and trebs are hard to counter with castle age. The first one to get to imp and getting trebs has a huge lead. Now I donât know what level you play on, but bombards are way to slow to get to and in most levels, timing is important
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One factor you miss.
Because Treb has more HP and can take 3 BBC shots so when you are defending your Castle with trebs, you can take few vills and repair it. So they can take even more hits. But BBC, because has so low HP, canot be repaired in this condition - one hit and over.
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You donât factor luck before hand or it puts you in a position of disadvantage if it doesnât realize. On the other hand, if you donât factor luck and it comes, you are automatically advantaged.
You need to put 1 tile back or else the bombard will reach it. 2 tiles if the enemy has siege engineer. Meaning that technically you are protected and can hit anything within 14 range but effectively meaning that you leave the castle vulnerable.
You donât need to play games. Calculate the probability of 3 trebs hitting 1 unit with the probability given by the wiki and calculate the probability of them hitting all 3 units, this doesnât factor that they move. It is like 0.05% which isnât exactly 1/1000 but something very low
Ehm yes? This is their main task, obviously. You are the first guy that complains that a drakage unit (fishing ship) is ounter by an imperial age unit (cannons)
With decent micro they should, yes. The are supposed to counter scorps/onagers/trebs, yet you still can get lucky shots on them, trebs even one hit them, even a spray volley one hits them. That just seems balanced. Vs rams it usually doesnt work.
with closed formation and some bad commands maybe, but in general no
How the hell did you manage to lose a single ele vs BBCs? 
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I though ships already included fishing ships. That is why it was obscure.
It isnât that good against units but it fares greatly against massed units and it is way better than trebuchets anyway. And against siege it isnât even lucky/shot or not. You can straight counter them.
I was thinking about the khemer ballistas but i forgot they also count as siege units and bombards deals more to siege.
Iâve run some tests.
1 Treb vs 1 BBC
20 times Treb without Siege Engineers vs BBC without SE
20 times Treb Without SE vs BBC with SE
Result:
1st 20 - Treb kill BBC 11 times per 20
2nd 20 - Treb kill BBC 12 times per 20 but 3 timew was âfrom the graveâ - BBC also killed Treb, but was killed by falling projectile.
And it was just the normal Treb. With SE should be better, as well as Tatar, Celt, Hun or Japanese treb, not even mention Britons.
For BBC, probably will be better Turk or Spanish.
You can easily run those tests by yourself, if You dont belive me.
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If you include micro thereâs no way a BBC looses to a trebuchet. Just move after shooting and while the Treb projectile is travelling through the airâŠ
Of course. But point of this whole discution is:
- Can Treb kill BBC in shooting exchange during castle defence?
And this is the answer.
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Itâs a class made specifically to prevent Fire Galleys from being OP. Basically anything that gets an attack bonus vs ships will get the same vs fishing ships except fire galleys, which get 1 instead of 3.
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Let me summarize what would have been my answer:
No.
Bombard cannons are extremely fragile. Unlike all the other siege options in the game, they have pretty mediocre pierce armor which makes them extremely vulnerable to archers and cavalry archers (along with being vulnerable to every melee unit just like any other siege unit). Just a rain of arrows handles the BBC without risking anything to a Halb front. Got skirmishers? The archer side will trade one or two archers for a BBC, everytime. Even a handful of archers (14) can kill a BBC in one volley, and that is not a hard number to amass. Bombard cannons are hard to amass. They are also expensive to amass, being the most expensive single unit in the entire game.
The only role that the BBC fills in an exceptional manner is anti-siege. Itâs great at that, no doubt. Thatâs hardly a reason to agree with the premise of the thread given everything it isnât.
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For me one thing is clear in this thread: Whatever you say against the idea of RoomOfTheEvil, he wont listen at all. In this thread he is clearly the only person who thinks bombard cannons are too strong. Every opinion against that statement is clearly not true for him. We can say whatever we like, he will never give you the impression he is listening to your arguments. With that attitude i dont know why i would continu argueing with he about this point. To me he seems like a non experienced who is not good at handling units.
I really dont know we are trying to argue trebs needs to be a counter to bombard cannons. Trebs arent meant to be a counter of bombard cannons. Bommbard cannons are a counter to trebs. Thatâs how the game is meant to be. If you wanna counter bombard cannons, just pick anything that is not a siege unit. If you can get close, just go infantry or cavarly. If you cant get close, pick something like archers. Even ships can kill bombard cannons easily if they can come close enough. Just hit and run a bit with units, so bombard cannons go to much forward and killing them is not really a problem.
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Yea I can put them behind the castle if you only have bombards, in which case you have nothing. But not if you add a treb. Obviously a combo of treb and bombard is better than a singular unit type, thats the point. And you are paying more for the bombard already. But I was telling you it is not uncounterable. Donât just go to the wiki and look at some mumbers of chance. Play the game and see how it actually plays out lol. And where do you even get this number from? Treb has an accuracy of 15%. That means 1 shot out of 6 will connect. If you have 3 treb and only 1 target ,they all need to shoot 2 times. But if you have 3 bombards grouped together, the hits that miss the actual target will likely hit the surrounding ones.
Do you even play the game. Youâre saying you need 2 000 shots to hit a bombard. Do you even understand how long that would take? 5 and a half hours. Almost 3 hours if it was 1k. Understand now how exaggerated that is?
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Since it is not accurate, it might go where you happen to be moving your bombard to.
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I believe you are just projecting. I never said bombard cannons are the most op units every made in the history of aoe2. I said they are a strong unit and a better trebuchet (which role is to destroy building and the bomabard does the same) which they shouldnât be immediately because the trebuchet requires more investment in time and cost than the bombard, even if the bombard costs slightly more. The point of the trebuchet not countering bombard is just that the trebuchet only counters buildings while the bombard counters buildings and siege and ships and massed units. I already refute all your points and all you have to say now is how i canât accept the things i already refuted. If you have to add nothing yo the discussion just leave
People are arguing again that just sniping the bombard is easy and refusing to acknowledge that the bombard wonât be sent alone in the fight and can be retreated quickly if there is enemy incoming because it can move faster than an onager.
You are refusing to acknowledge that the opposition is also not alone. Bombard is better, costs more, takes longer to create than trebuchet even at base speed and trebuchet gets faster with conscription, unlike bombard cannon and you can also start making trebs before bombards, unless you are playing as turks. Of course bombard cannon has to also be useful and also worth itâs price so right now there is zero reason at all to nerf it, because it is not an invincible unit although you are making it out to be.
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I feel the same. I refute all your arguments, but it seems like you cant accept the things i refute. I think i can even speak in âweâ. I am not alone. So it looks like you cant accept the things we refute. If we have a look at this thread it will be you vs all other people. So for me it is clear: Most people argue we dont need to reduce the range of bombard cannons. Many disagree with your point of view. It is not just me. I do recieve many likes on my posts. That is like people saying: I agree with your opinion. I dont see many likes on your posts. So not so many people agree with your point of view.
Please change your attitude. It really seems you have a blind spot for everything that is against your own point of view. I do not say âchange your point of viewâ. If you think bombard cannons are too strong and need a nerf, that fine. Just also accept most people have another point of view and disagree with your point of view. Lucky a point of view is not a fact. So you can agree to disagree. There is nothing wrong with having a different opinion as long as both side have respect to the other point of view.
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Did you try from trebuchetâs range of from bbc range?