The Phoenicians = Carthaginians statement feels to me exactly like Spain = Mexico or UK = USA.
Carthaginians are descendents of Phoenicians settlers in a separate and disjointed territory than that of the Phoenicians.
Both civilizations are distinct in culture, relations, military, etc
They have coexisted for hundreds of years, I’m talking different peoples with different territories on different ends of the Mediterranean.
As for the Macedonians = Greeks argument, I think all of my previous points still hold, except that there is insufficient historical proof to confirm or reject a broader Greek identity that encompasses both peoples.
Bro, Carthaginians might be descendants of Phoenicians, but they created a separate identity. There were other Phoenician colonies in the entire Mediterranean that retained connection with mainland Phoenicia, but Carthage became independent.
And what if you have a campaign about the Punic wars, who will fight the Romans, the Phoenicians? Makes no sense.
About Macedonians, I’m unsure whether they are considered entirely Greek or somehow different, but in any case Alexander was so Great (pun not intended) that they deserve their own focus.
Same case with Minoans, not as great as Macedonians, but still a separate identity with loose connections with mainland Greece.
Only somehow agree with Palmyra, but the civ has been in the game for 25 years and has become symbolic for a lame civ. If anything the game lacks civilizations, so removing any makes 0 sense. Besides, you have to remove Queen Zenobia and Zenobia’s tower, which is not cool. And it represents a short lived empire that rose to power and then fell quickly, fits perfectly into the Empires narrative.
Macedonians spoke a Greek dialect. Macedonians worshipped the same god. Greece was split to many poleis, just like ancient China, but they were greatly similar in terms of everything.
Did you even read my suggestion?
Carthaginians were literally Phoenicians. Of course they will be Phoenicians.
Arabs also created different identity with Islam
Magyars also created different identity with settling down and adopting Christianity
Warring States of China also changed their identity etc.
but it doesn’t justify giving them seperate civs in their respective aoe games.
Cultures greatly evolve, so did Phoenicians, but that doesn’t mean at every stage they need a different civ.
“Elephant units cost -25%” is clealry based on Carthage also half of Phoenician AI names are Carthaginian. In Trajan’s campaign it is stated Alexander was a Greek. Greek civilization history says: “Greek civilization would reach its peak under Alexander the Great”, which clearly implies that Macedonians were supposed to be covered by the Greeks, rightfully.
Phoenicians aren’t the same as Carthaginians. Different location, different armies, different reasons for fame. They were both traders, but only Carthage is remembered as one of the great military powers of Antiquity, and it’s because of the Punic Wars. It really wouldn’t be doing them justice to have them represented by Phoenicians.
Gameplay-wise, there are some massive differences between the civs. The Greeks are the greek city-states (Athens Sparta you know the list…) while the Macedonians are Macedon (considered half-barbarian by the Greeks) and some successor states like the Seleucids.