Request: Let Samurai Toggle Melee/Ranged

Ashigaru may work as a trash unit that can also be used as a villager while still having stances, but I’m not sure it would be too interesting. What about sohei? They could use naginata, be recruited at the monastery and work as an anti-cav unit with the ability to heal allies and maybe carry relics, affected by fervor and the Lithuanian team bonus, but unable to convert ennemy units.

My point is Ratha is currently balanced through having both Halberdiers and Skirmishers deal bonus damage to it.

Samurai right now functions similarly to Champions, who clear every trash unit with ease. You would have to have gold power units to be able to kill them, if they keep their Infantry status. Having similar stats to Arbalests would also mean they could conveniently deal with Arbalests, so your only option is… Heavy Cavalry. That is a nightmarish power unit.

Samurai is borderline useless because it is overshadowed by the Militia-line.
They need a buff, but I would dislike such change for an almost perfectly balanced civ.
+10 HP for Elite, cost reduction or something similar is the way.

That’s what I figured, although I think their mobility is being undersold here (of course we’ll need some time to see how it actually works out in practice).

Right, which is kind of an unfortunate relegation for a unique unit (trash killer), especially for one that was largely intended to fight other unique units. I believe I’ve already suggested the possibility them having the archer armor class overall, or the class of whatever they switch to, which would balance this out (so in that context they’d be kind of like the Rattan vs. skirms - receiving bonus damage, but able to kill skirms)

I agree that they’re just too similar to the cheaper, easier to mass champion, and there have been many other threads about this over the years, particularly since the Supplies tech.(Are the samurai and the Japanese champion too similar? Ideas to help differentiate them: - #3 by BoughtRelic9282). I would be down to buff them in any way that makes them more useful, but I’ve come to believe that the weapon toggle would be the best option. (2nd place goes to somewhat increased speed, so that they would be better able to catch up to some of the unique archer units). For whatever reason, these previous ideas have never gained the traction to be implemented, even though a wide range of people seem to agree that the Samurai has a quite limited range of usefulness. The problem I have with just buffing their HP or attack is that it buffs them where they are already strong, but doesn’t really improve their competence vs. units they’re bad against. +10 HP would make them needlessly better against Huskarls and Berserks, but they’d remain quite bad against archer UUs, and marginally stronger vs. cavalry, which I think isn’t what they really need given the Japanese Halb strengths. Again, the ranged option would let them actually stand a chance against some (particularly archer) UUs, and there are a plethora of ways to do so without making them OP (e.g. Higher Cost, archer armor class, little to no bonus damage for archer form, low base damage for archer form…) Better to think about the restrictions/weaknesses it would need rather than just write it off as in impossible to balance unit.

I’m not so sure. It seems to have a single button/hotkey to switch attacks, rather than a different button/hotkey for each attack. I’d rather the latter, so that I don’t need to know what attack is enabled to switch to the one I want - especially since if you select multiple Rathas (don’t know if that’s the correct plural) they switch somewhat unpredictably.

But I do really like the idea - so I hope I’m worrying about nothing and it actually turns out easy enough to use.

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Essentially, every unit is balanced between being versatile, being affordable and being strong. Cavalry archers are very flexible and reasonably strong, so they’re the most unaffordable units in the game (counting upgrades and numbers needed to be effective). A mounted unit that can choose to be ranged or melee is already a daring experiment in versatility, if you also let them choose to be unmounted (with extra defense, I’m guesing?) and let them keep their own gimmick, the bonus vs unique units, then what is there left to counter them? They’ll either need to be really weak, really expensive, or both ro some degree.

Also, three gimmicks on one unit is just showing off. :wink:

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Perhaps I misspoke, their primary function is still to kill Unique Units. Their stats are comparable to Champions, who clears trash units with ease. Therefore in addition, Samurais also mow down any trash unit composition, which is problematic if they suddenly get a ranged attack on top. And if they get an Archer armor class, I feel like they might go into the other extreme by becoming completely useless instead.

Hey man, it’s 2022. I’m convinced that anything less than 7 gimmicks for the Samurai proves that the devs aren’t even trying. Samurai need bonus damage, weapon toggle, mounting, the ability to slice incoming bullets in half with their amazing reflexes (dodge-like mechanic of the Shrivamsha rider), ability to cut armor in half with their magic katanas (like the Obuch), a charge trample attack, and the ability to fly like Stormy Dog. :laughing:

Also, I hereby decree that every thread that mentions the new DLC, or any new or nonstandard mechanic or ability must make liberal use of the word “Gimmick.” Because it’s a fun word. And because if it’s not a mimic of what’s been seen before, it’s a gimmick.

Even without the archer armor class, I don’t see how a low powered base range attack (or possibly low rate of fire) makes them particularly threatening, except to UUs. The purpose/design of the ranged attack is to not to make them a strong archer unit, it is to make them an average archer unit (tankier than Arb but worse DPS) that gets a small bonus against UUs in its archer form. Performance against generic units would be significantly better in its melee form, and basically the only reason to switch to range is if you can’t close in with an enemy UU, or against very slow units that you can hit and run against (basically just TK and War Elephant)

I love the idea of a warrior monk unit existing (mainly for the heal/combat or convert/combat mechanic as seen in SWGB), but I think it would have to be exclusive to the scenario editor (great for a Nobunaga scenario/campaign.) Thing is, Japanese already have excellent monks, and the best (anti-cav) halbs in the game, so it seems kind of redundant to give them Sohei, and it doesn’t seem to solve any problem or improve them in a way that I can really justify. Cool unit for sure though.

I like the idea of giving Samurai a ranged attack. I think Samurai need it because vast majority of UUs have either the speed or the range to never let them get close. I think the ranged attack should be small, like 1 or 2 with 5 base range so that it does not overshadow the melee mode, while still allowing the unit to apply its bonus damage to other UUs.

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