Saving ~1000 resources on fast castles is broken when you also get castle age cavaliers. Fast imperials are harder to pull off so its probably fine, but the fast castle would make Burgundians OP.
Vikings save slightly less and have bad knights and generic crossbows. Thats the big diference.
875, assuming you skip on double bit in feudal (questionably useful because extra wood is usually more important immediately in castle over the 100 food and you’ll lose more than that 50 wood in lost efficiency during the uptime) and without it, it’s 725 resources, same as Viking with Wheel+Hand, and they are up the extra villager efficiency for all of Feudal, and they have the extra Hand cart efficiency all through Castle.
That doesn’t count seeding farms before Horse Collar, and a lack of any meaningful dark age bonus, or the natural resource losses to inefficiency of workers. The later the bonus kicks in, the stronger it has to be, to be meaningful.
Also, on a closed map like arena where you expect them to be so potent, not having fully upgraded options in Imperial makes them dubiously effective in the lategame. That gives them a distinct window to apply lethal pressure in the late Castle, early Imperial age, and I fail to see what’s wrong with that. If anything, it makes the Revolution aspect even more meaningful, if we dare rework it but keep it.
First idea just sucks. It’s literally worse than Portuguese in first two ages (ig you count loom as an eco upgrade) equal in castle and barely better in imp.
The UT rework is eh too. Like it’s super expensive and just 10% refund on villagers is an incredibly weak effect in imperial age. If it was made cheaper and just unlocked flemish militia it would be simpler.
Its still too good for a civ with cavalry on the level as Lithuanians.
Also, the paladins are still really good even if not amazing. Them taking one less hit isnt that huge when you have everything else, the weaker part is just the bad hussars
Cavarly civs do not dominate Arena, Siege civs do. “Cavalry” civs that don’t provide a very mean-looking siege line do very poorly on Arena.
To say the Burgundian siege is lacking, and therefore might struggle on Arena, is probably being too generous to the Burgundians.
I wasnt talking about Arena particularly. This bonus is strong in any map in which you can make a passable fast castle
Anyway, I didnt read your previous comment right tbh
Yeah, a lot of people did. 
It’s cool.
Do you ever play the game?
I think it would be cool to start with +75 wood and food. Its enough to take advantage of the civ bouns of earlier tech without letting them do crazy tricky things. Then your relying on your eco advantage to get to castle faster to use caviller.
Again that is essentially the same bonus for Lithuanians but weaker and a bad copy of the Persian bonus.
I would give Burgundians Berry Bushes containing 50% more food.
I mean keeping the other bonuses. The idea is to let you actually access bit axe and horse collar before feudal. Adding more food to berries doesnt do anything for this fact. You would still be holdimg yourself back buying upgrades by a few minutes
The thing is, Burgundians aren’t that bad as people want them to be, they just need some not that big buff and reworking the UTs as well then you have a solid civ able to compete with the Khmer or Lithuanians in open maps.
Also keep in mind the design, yes your suggestion is balanced, but do we want another persian-like civ? or something unique.
I wouldn’t use it in a similar manner as the Persians. You get strait to eco upgrades. Basicly when I see the civ I think wall up and out boom to a awesome castle age and try to win there. If your getting stellar resources you can lose all you vills to FR and follow up with a cavallier spam and reboom before your eco takes a large hit. To me that is a different enough to not be like another civ. You would want 3-5 tc first
Correct me if I wrong. Burgundians is the only cavalry civ that doesn’t have BL. cough cough and Franks. Earlier access to Cavalier doesn’t seem to be a good alternative despite being cheaper.
only cavalry civ. and thats because they get castle age cavalier and easy access paladin.
nah its more because they have no long term strategy and their eco isn’t all that good.
My mistake.
That’s definitely an issue. Although I can think about one civ that does not have any eco bonus and still good - Magyars. Yes cheaper scout and free attack can be used as a economy bonus but they are more of military bonus. And they have better military options as well. Above average archer, one of the best CA and even UU is better than Coustilier most of the cases.
In the end, I think not having enough potential due to lack of both economy or military bonus to rush in early game (Dark and Feudal) plays a major role along with pure eco bonuses. Burgundians have very little advantage for an early rush. Magyars have one of the best scrush and very decent M@rush potential.
when is the last time you saw magyars used seriously in a tournament?
The obvious answer will be RBW3. But I know you don’t want me to say that since it is EW settings.
I don’t know what do you try to point though. If someone says Magyars needs buff, I feel like you will be one of the first one to say “Magyars is fine. No change is needed.” And yes they are completely fine. Whether you see them in tournaments or not.
My point is if you up Burgundians to the same level as Magyars (around 47% win rate, need to check again though), they will be fine. It is not a big deal how they reach that level - only better eco or only better military or a mix of both.
Honestly you can’t just expect all the 37 civs in every single tournament. Unless the drafting is changed. We didn’t see Magyars in HC4 but I’m optimistic we’ll see them in KOTD4. Similarly if Burgundians becomes a solid civ but still not that much frequent in tournaments, I think we should be okay with that.
Also I wanted to emphasize on this -
yeah other then rbw3 i haven’t seen them much at all in the past year. and rbw3 favors them because it lets them spring right into their great scout rush
the only thing i think magyars need is a very minor early eco boost to get them to feudal.
this is true but how often have you seen magyars at all in the past year? heck go back to NAC3 and go forward and you don’t see them much. except RBW3
Or RBW in general. We have seen them in KOTD3. Not that much frequent though.
My point still stands though. We just can’t expect pros to use all the civs in tournaments.
I’ll be okay with that if it comes with little military nerf.
Speaking of Burgundians buff - I made my own thread and that’s a subjective opinion. Mind you comment there?