RTS : About multitask and strategy -Deep thoughs-

Age of Empires: DE I - Discussion
21

@RWNorthPole said:

@Zsombro said:

@RWNorthPole said:

@Zsombro said:

@RWNorthPole said:

@keepintouch75 said:

@RWNorthPole said:

Like Tgaud’s said, AOE2 could have automated farms because it has a lot of other stuff to keep you busy both economics and military.
did you read his post ?

You seem to dislike everything about age of empire1.
Maybe it’s simply not a game for you ?
You seem want to make it something it’s not.
If you have a different RTS vision, maybe you should go on age of empire3 forum and ask for a remake, or for an age of empire 4, and I would follow you. But here it’s about age of empire 1 dude…

Sorry dude, but you know when you go to a chinese restaurant, it’s to eat chinese, not italian.

Like I said, I play RoR daily. I am most definitely a fan of the game, and have played it for a very long time. I dislike AoE3, and I don’t really need an AoE4. AoE2 had plenty of things to do, but in my opinion, not much more than AoE1. I did read the post, hence why I responded to it…I’m not asking for italian here, I just want chinese without the old limitations and annoyances. Farms are something I want to be at least improved, not changed.

I’m not asking for anything but AoE1. I want a better AoE1 - little changes won’t make it not AoE1.

Little changes would make it AoE 2 instead of a better AoE 1 :smiley:

I don’t really think so. I think that this is the inherent power of nostalgia - I do understand your point about it not being AoE1…I really do. But I also think that little changes are necessary to attract new players and make the game a viable purchase for anyone outside of us old-timer fans. I can play without the small changes - I have for a long time. But I would welcome them in to the game, too. Besides, we know there will be a Classic Mode, so to each their own.

New players would find this game new if they didn’t knew it was a remastered version of a 20 years old game.

New players who would find themselves probably annoyed at outdated, ancient mechanics initially brought about by hardware/engine limitations that applied two decades ago, which have been solved in most games since - I think a large crowd of new players will be people who got into AoE2, which was the far more popular game of the two, and it would be a real shame if these little kinds of things turned them back to AoE2. I personally can attest that more or less all of my friends would get annoyed by things we’ve all learned to deal with in AoE1 - it’s not 1997 anymore.

I still don’t see the reason to make another game which will be 95% the same as AoE 2 of only half of the suggested improvements would be implemented.
Just why make AoE 2 HD more hd?

22

@RWNorthPole said:

@BoucleOrange413 said:
No one was playing 50 pop. Even in 1998 people were playing 200 already !
Anyway we get off topic.

That doesn’t change my point at all.

And it doesn’t change ours.
It was already possible to handle farm with 200pop in 1998 without any gameplay problem.

And even if it was pop1000
Having more stuff to do, what is bad about that ?
Player who can adapt to the multitask gets the reward of victory.
The one who can’t lose. Or he can rush so the game never go to 200pop.

23

@Zsombro said:

@RWNorthPole said:

@Zsombro said:

@RWNorthPole said:

@Zsombro said:

@RWNorthPole said:

@keepintouch75 said:

@RWNorthPole said:

Like Tgaud’s said, AOE2 could have automated farms because it has a lot of other stuff to keep you busy both economics and military.
did you read his post ?

You seem to dislike everything about age of empire1.
Maybe it’s simply not a game for you ?
You seem want to make it something it’s not.
If you have a different RTS vision, maybe you should go on age of empire3 forum and ask for a remake, or for an age of empire 4, and I would follow you. But here it’s about age of empire 1 dude…

Sorry dude, but you know when you go to a chinese restaurant, it’s to eat chinese, not italian.

Like I said, I play RoR daily. I am most definitely a fan of the game, and have played it for a very long time. I dislike AoE3, and I don’t really need an AoE4. AoE2 had plenty of things to do, but in my opinion, not much more than AoE1. I did read the post, hence why I responded to it…I’m not asking for italian here, I just want chinese without the old limitations and annoyances. Farms are something I want to be at least improved, not changed.

I’m not asking for anything but AoE1. I want a better AoE1 - little changes won’t make it not AoE1.

Little changes would make it AoE 2 instead of a better AoE 1 :smiley:

I don’t really think so. I think that this is the inherent power of nostalgia - I do understand your point about it not being AoE1…I really do. But I also think that little changes are necessary to attract new players and make the game a viable purchase for anyone outside of us old-timer fans. I can play without the small changes - I have for a long time. But I would welcome them in to the game, too. Besides, we know there will be a Classic Mode, so to each their own.

New players would find this game new if they didn’t knew it was a remastered version of a 20 years old game.

New players who would find themselves probably annoyed at outdated, ancient mechanics initially brought about by hardware/engine limitations that applied two decades ago, which have been solved in most games since - I think a large crowd of new players will be people who got into AoE2, which was the far more popular game of the two, and it would be a real shame if these little kinds of things turned them back to AoE2. I personally can attest that more or less all of my friends would get annoyed by things we’ve all learned to deal with in AoE1 - it’s not 1997 anymore.

I still don’t see the reason to make another game which will be 95% the same as AoE 2 of only half of the suggested improvements would be implemented.
Just why make AoE 2 HD more hd?

Dude, I think you’re missing my entire point. 95% the same? Seriously? No, I don’t want AoE2. I think you’re overestimating the impact that convenient QoL changes will have. These are small, unimportant but vastly satisfying changes that will make the game less of a hassle to play. They won’t detract from the complexity, or from that factor that made AoE the greatest damn RTS game ever. It’ll just make annoying things not so annoying. For example, I played a RoR match earlier today, and noticed that my villies kept getting stuck on eachother - no big deal, since 1998 pathfinding wasn’t the best, but if I could have that fixed, I’d take that in a heartbeat. Same idea with the farms.

24

Thank to random map :
you have to first witness if you find your food right away or not. If you find your food maybe you won’t find >your wood, or it will be very far
So you cannot decide your strategy before playing you will have to ADAPT
ADAPT = to rething the Strategy at every moment.

Stop to said “adapt” if your map is bad, all strong player of all rts hate unfair map, lost because of map is not fun.

And yeah sometime its crap, you’re pissed. but the ennemy have the same % of chance to having badluck at >some point too.

If the map making decide à big part of victory, it’s not fun.

Its like Poker. Bad luck happens, not every player have the same cards, but you have to deal with it.
And the best always succeed anyway, because of ADAPTATION capabilities.

Stop this comparison, is totally falacious, in poker your opponenet don’t know your hand, he can’t know your bluff, you can’t bluff if your map is bad, your map is bad and you loose because you fall behind.

Moreover age of empire1 never was a 1v1 contest RTS. it was more a 3v3 or 4v4 big, fun and unpredictive >games.

Again, its totaly subjective, the most aoe1 views are on 1v1 games

if you want to have a totally symetrical, predictiven, monotask strategy game, play chess.

Falacious argument again, make fair map is different that “totally symetrics”, please don’t use sophisme.

25

@BoucleOrange413 said:

@RWNorthPole said:

@BoucleOrange413 said:
No one was playing 50 pop. Even in 1998 people were playing 200 already !
Anyway we get off topic.

That doesn’t change my point at all.

And it doesn’t change ours.
It was already possible to handle farm with 200pop in 1998 without any gameplay problem.

And even if it was pop1000
Having more stuff to do, what is bad about that ?
Player who can adapt to the multitask gets the reward of victory.
The one who can’t lose. Or he can rush so the game never go to 200pop.

Because spending your time replanting farms is tedious and annoying? Maybe not for you, but for me, and for many others, it’s a pain in the ass to keep moving villies around and separate the farms so they don’t block eachother and destroy my economy. Sure, it’s part of the game, but it’s really a part of the game I could do without. Just because it was in AoE doesn’t make it sacred or infallible…

26

@Tgaud thank you for this very interesting post because all in this is the spirit of AoE and I’m 100% agree with.
Forget guys that do not understand AoE1
I play this game since 2000 and I’m still playing on Voobly so I know what is good or bad for this game

27

There are a lot of points covered here and I agree with most of them. I understand what you mean when you say we shouldn’t get rid of opportunities for good players to display their skill. It does take a lot of focus and attention to make sure you always come back at the right time to create the next unit and make your production buildings or farms efficient. These are things which could separate good players from bad.

Yes, APM is it’s own resource in AOE1. However, I think there are a lot of players who would rather use their limited APM on other decisions that are perhaps less mundane. I would rather lose a game because my opponent took strategic locations away from me by force than because I forgot to rebuild my farms once. There’s still a lot of decisions to be made.

You’re probably one of the best players in the world when it comes to remembering to re-build farms, but many see this as an nescience instead of the mark of a good player.

28

@RWNorthPole said:

  • RTS game ever. It’ll just make annoying things not so annoying. For example, I played a RoR match earlier today, and noticed that my villies kept getting stuck on eachother - no big deal, since 1998 pathfinding wasn’t the best, but if I could have that fixed, I’d take that in a heartbeat. Same idea with the farms.

Totally different.
Bad pathfinding is a bug. It doesnt reflect your decisions.
Farms, are a feature… a way to develop your economic micromanagement power. It reflect precisely your actions or inactivity.
automatic farm is the same as no farm.

each ressource as its own micro management of depletion.
Wood : you have to rebuild a depot everytime a villager walk too long to get to the trees. or find new forests. It Taketime.
Gold : You have to find new mines, it takes time.
Fish : you have to find new fish and move your fishing boat and check them every X minutes.
Farm : you have to replace them every X minutes. it takes time.

You, you just want to remove the economical micromanagement of food. build your farms, queue, and forget.

Sorry but no…

29

@Lithen777 said:
There are a lot of points covered here and I agree with most of them. I understand what you mean when you say we shouldn’t get rid of opportunities for good players to display their skill. It does take a lot of focus and attention to make sure you always come back at the right time to create the next unit and make your production buildings or farms efficient. These are things which could separate good players from bad.

Yes, APM is it’s own resource in AOE1. However, I think there are a lot of players who would rather use their limited APM on other decisions that are perhaps less mundane. I would rather lose a game because my opponent took strategic locations away from me by force than because I forgot to rebuild my farms once. There’s still a lot of decisions to be made.

You’re probably one of the best players in the world when it comes to remembering to re-build farms, but many see this as an nescience instead of the mark of a good player.

You dont win or lose because your forgot to rebuild a farm.
You win or lose because when mixing all the elements : multitasking, strategy, X , Y … you are better than your opponent or not.

If he’s more applicated than me on something, of course he can win.

And if my strategy is so weak that he can win just by replanting a farm and not me, well maybe i should reevaluate my strategy :wink:

30

@BoucleOrange413 said:

@RWNorthPole said:

  • RTS game ever. It’ll just make annoying things not so annoying. For example, I played a RoR match earlier today, and noticed that my villies kept getting stuck on eachother - no big deal, since 1998 pathfinding wasn’t the best, but if I could have that fixed, I’d take that in a heartbeat. Same idea with the farms.

Totally different.
Bad pathfinding is a bug. It doesnt reflect your decisions.
Farms, are a feature… a way to develop your economic micromanagement power. It reflect precisely your actions or inactivity.
automatic farm is the same as no farm.

each ressource as its own micro management of depletion.
Wood : you have to rebuild a depot everytime a villager walk too long to get to the trees. or find new forests. It Taketime.
Gold : You have to find new mines, it takes time.
Fish : you have to find new fish and move your fishing boat and check them every X minutes.
Farm : you have to replace them every X minutes. it takes time.

You, you just want to remove the economical micromanagement of food. build your farms, queue, and forget.

Sorry but no…

Bad pathfinding is a hardware limitation. Same as farms not being walk-able. An argument could be made for pathfinding being something that could be micro’d…I do not want to remove complexity from the game. I want to remove tediousness and needless annoyance. I’d be okay with not even including queuing…just making the farms walkable and easier to quickly replentish (such as with a right-click instead of having to select your villie, move him away, and find the exact spot where your farm was so that it doesn’t implode your food eco by blocking all the other farmers).

31

@Amphiprion said:

Thank to random map :
you have to first witness if you find your food right away or not. If you find your food maybe you won’t find >your wood, or it will be very far
So you cannot decide your strategy before playing you will have to ADAPT
ADAPT = to rething the Strategy at every moment.

Stop to said “adapt” if your map is bad, all strong player of all rts hate unfair map, lost because of map is not fun.

And yeah sometime its crap, you’re pissed. but the ennemy have the same % of chance to having badluck at >some point too.

If the map making decide à big part of victory, it’s not fun.

Its like Poker. Bad luck happens, not every player have the same cards, but you have to deal with it.
And the best always succeed anyway, because of ADAPTATION capabilities.

Stop this comparison, is totally falacious, in poker your opponenet don’t know your hand, he can’t know your bluff, you can’t bluff if your map is bad, your map is bad and you loose because you fall behind.

Moreover age of empire1 never was a 1v1 contest RTS. it was more a 3v3 or 4v4 big, fun and unpredictive >games.

Again, its totaly subjective, the most aoe1 views are on 1v1 games

if you want to have a totally symetrical, predictiven, monotask strategy game, play chess.

Falacious argument again, make fair map is different that “totally symetrics”, please don’t use sophisme.

Age of empire 1 is a multifactor strategy game.
If you want predictive game , maybe you should look for another one.
Because what you’re looking for it’s not there.

32

@RWNorthPole said:

Bad pathfinding is a hardware limitation. Same as farms not being walk-able. An argument could be made for pathfinding being something that could be micro’d…I do not want to remove complexity from the game. I want to remove tediousness and needless annoyance.

playing is not annoying… it’s part of the challenge.

I’d be okay with not even including queuing…
just making the farms walkable and easier to quickly replentish (such as with a right-click instead of having to >select your villie, move him away, and find the exact spot where your farm was so that it doesn’t implode your >food eco by blocking all the other farmers).

Totally agree with you there.
As long as you have to actually “decide”, it’s ok for me.

33

Age of empire 1 is a multifactor strategy game.
If you want predictive game , maybe you should look for another one.
Because what you’re looking for it’s not there.

I said “fair map” and you understand “predictive”. An rts is a strategy game, not a random game, if you like randomness, play casino not a strategy game. If you start with bad lucky you loose, where is the strategy inside?

34

@BoucleOrange413 said:

@RWNorthPole said:

Bad pathfinding is a hardware limitation. Same as farms not being walk-able. An argument could be made for pathfinding being something that could be micro’d…I do not want to remove complexity from the game. I want to remove tediousness and needless annoyance.

playing is not annoying… it’s part of the challenge.

I disagree. It isn’t. That sort of argument basically invalidates all criticism but I don’t think it’s a valid argument to use. You’re basically saying the game is perfect and nobody should want any changes because it’s the way things are. But now, with DE coming out, it’s not the way things are anymore. We can actually suggest new changes that would benefit the game as a whole and modernize it - that’s the whole point of a remake! Part of the challenge is overcoming gameplay limits, sure, but these gameplay limits don’t even have to be included 20 years later.

35

Remake means not modifying the gameplay and strategic choice.
You do… imho.

36

@Amphiprion said:

Age of empire 1 is a multifactor strategy game.
If you want predictive game , maybe you should look for another one.
Because what you’re looking for it’s not there.

I said “fair map” and you understand “predictive”. An rts is a strategy game, not a random game, if you like randomness, play casino not a strategy game.

In poker you can win with a pair of 2. Its a matter of adaptation to the circumstance.

If you start with bad lucky you loose, where is the strategy inside?
No, you adapt. Age of empire is not predictive , so you have many opportunities to make the difference.
maybe in the opponent team someone will have badluck too.

And if u have badluck this time maybe you’ll have more other time.

Seriously, maybe this game is just not the good for you.
But there is plenty of good RTS with predictive map, like starcraft. Maybe you should go there…

37

Remake means not modifying the gameplay and strategic choice.
So you are against rebalence civ / unit? because that change strategic choice, you are against atta moov and better pathfinding? because that modifying the gameplay.

If you like aoe1, play aoe1 (its inclued on aoe-de).

38

@BoucleOrange413 said:
Remake means not modifying the gameplay and strategic choice.
You do… imho.

Well, that’s what they’re doing. I don’t know what you expect, but there will always be Classic Mode for you.
Look at the trailer: “New and Improved Gameplay”

39

In poker you can win with a pair of 2. Its a matter of adaptation to the circumstance.

Yes, and in aoe1 you can’t win with no food, thanks a lot confirme my demonstration than aoe is not like poker -_-

And if u have badluck this time maybe you’ll have more other time.

Yes again, and i don’t buy a game if i play one game on two because one game on two the map is disgousting.

40

Blizzard kept adding QoL feature to wow. Look at it nowit is a mindless zombi game where you raid once and grind ■■■■ for the rest of the week. Even after the first expansion the game was broken because they added flying and you only met people in the cities but not outside them.
It doesn’t mean microsoft would keep adding those features but there will be always someone who would love to play with only one more QoL feature.