Should Byzantine's knight line be affected by logistica (trample damage only)?

After playing with Byzantine for so long, I realized that byzantine’s paladins are so terrible (no blood line, no blast furnace) that there is no reason for anyone to ever research them.

So I decided to make a mod that allows logistica to affect their knight line (only trample damage, no bonus vs infantry), and it yielded some very interesting result.

-On 1v1 they still lose to fully upgrade paladins
-Against Frank’s paladins 20vs20, they perform almost equally (the Frank usually won but with only 2-3 paladins left with 10%-15% hp remaining per paladins) . On 30vs30 and 60vs60, the result is the same as above.
_Against Teuton’s paladins, 20vs20, they are equal, the fight could go either way. On 30vs30 and 60vs60, the byzantine usually won with around 6-8 paladins left (10-20% hp left per paladins).
-Against boyars, Byzantine paladins always lose (which is expected) but they will badly damage the boyars before going down.

  • I assume they beat generic fully upgraded paladins because of those results above. I haven’t tested them against infantries yet.

PS: I tested them against fully upgraded slav halbs, 30 paladins vs 60, they took out roughly 42-45 halbs before going down, which is surprising to me. Still they are no where near cataphracts when it came to this, even with only 20 cataphracts, they still wiped out 60 halbs with only 2 loses

Logistica, if affects byzantine’s paldins (trample damage only), will greatly increase the performance without making them OP. What do you think? should they make it official for logistca to affect paladins?

23 Likes

Cool idea. Sounds like you’ve done enough testing to understand balance implications. It wouldn’t be terrible for Byzantines to have a little more offensive capability.

3 Likes

I think this is very interesting idea and i can’t see it backfiring in any other way. =)

I like the idea to promote underwhelming tech. But Paladin+Logistica seems too expensive in 1v1. This change somewhat like extending stirrups to knight line but teamgame-oriented. I am wondering the performance of cavalier/paladin with Logistica against halbs. Will it be too hard to counter and outclass cataphract against halbs/other infantry?

Maybe hard to counter, but I don’t think it’s on the same level as Cataphracts against Halberdiers. Their resistance to bonus damage cuts the Halberdier’s 32 attack to cavalry in half, and the cataphract has 26 attack to infantry vs Paladin’s 16.

Paladin + Logistica would probably be too expensive for most 1v1 games, but this would make Byzantines a much more viable pocket civ in team games. They seem to be almost exclusively a flank civ currently.

I tested them against fully upgraded slav halbs, 30 paladins vs 60, they took out roughly 42-45 halbs before going down, which is surprising to me. Still they are no where near cataphracts when it came to this, even with only 20 cataphracts, they still wiped out 60 halbs with only 2 loses

2 Likes

I’ve just tested it, paladins with logistica is still no where near cataphracts’ insane level of anti-halb

2 Likes

Why would you want to do it though? To completely burry Cataphracts like they did we Konniks, Leitis and Mamelukes.

You want to increase diversity, you can’t turn Cataphract into a niche anti-infantry unit. Needless to say Byzantines have access to many other units that counter Infantry nicely.

The Byzantine Paladin has only one purpose which is countering Archers (full armor) with a gold unit, since sometimes you cant just rely on trash. (they lack Siege Eng, so it’s either Skirm or Paladin), very relevant in Gold Rush/Pit/Swamp or situations where you know you’re capable of winning the game therefore long-term gold efficiency is less relevant.
It’s okay for a generic unit (Knight line) to play a lesser role in a civ’s tech. We dont want Byzantines to become the new Sicilians. (a dead civ concept wise once they added the new unique tech)

Stop killing the game for the sake of a romantic harmony.

1 Like

I support the idea, Byzantine paladins are just a terrible unit for TG, at least with trample damage they can atleast compete.

Konniks are a totally viable UU because of kreposts, and with two lives, they are hard to counter as Cataphracts when massed.
Leitis now have the role of the medium cavalry with high attack since Lithuanians now lack blast furnace but lower PA that is cheap, useful for late imperial age battles in 1v1, especially vs melee civs.
Mamelukes yeah, they need a cost revision but the unit can’t be blindly buffed, because massed they are close to be a cheat unit lol.

Hmmm, I don’t know. It sounds like a fun idea. But I don’t like the feeling of a non-cavalry civ having Paladins that can not only defeat generic Paladins, but also compete with Paladins from heavy cavalry civs. I also recommend testing this mod with Cavalier vs. Cavalier battles, since it may be that the Byzantine player wants Logistica before Paladin. For myself, I wouldn’t make Logistica affect the Knight line without also removing Paladin. But removing Paladin means taking away from a civ without Siege Engineers one option for fighting Arbalesters easily. And I think that hurts the Byzantine identity of having one or more counter units for any composition.

I support that idea. Byzantines don’t have good unit in TG. It makes their paladin very good TG unit.
Still, there are much more stronger unit in late-imp TG (Franks, Teuton Paladin, Leitis, Boyar etc.), there it won’t broken. Also, it need huge investment of Paladin upgrade and Logisitica. It means it can affect 1v1 in very niche situation.

One of the few good ideas that Ive read around these forums.

1 Like

no, it shouldn’t. I mean already based on your numbers, Byzantines going toe to toe with some Knight civs would be insane given how they already have some of the best Halbs in the game, arguably the best anti-infantry unit, 3rd or 4th best Skirms on top of stuff like cheap Camels and a wide tech tree.

Let’s also remember that Paladins have 3 pierce armor, Byzantines don’t need a “1 size fits all” option for late game, Cataphract already come close to that but at least they require a castle and have an actual weakness (1 pierce armor), which Paladins don’t have.

Honestly, even without Bloodlines and last attack upgrade, Byzantine Paladin is not that bad, the main problem is the cost of the tech itself, but if gold is not an issue, it’s still far better than Cavaliers.

TBH I don’t think this would change byz gameplay in like 99% of their matches.

Their killer blow unit is the cataphract. Almost nobody even tries to get to paladin with them, so…
Useless.

so don’t give their Paladin trample damage. Their tech tree is reasonable already, if they must get 1 buff I’d rather give them Siege Engineers (and heavy scorps if they miss those, can’t recall now).

Byzantines as an Archer civ actually have full upgrades and as a bonus you get fairly strong but not best Stable units also. You can also hit the Arbalest timing with them with their discounted Imp price and mix in Camels vs Knight civs at any point, something that 1/2 the Archer civs don’t even have (Britons, Mayans…) and the other 1/2 do less competitively (Ethiopians for example don’t get Bloodlines OR a discount on Camels).

Something they need because at TG they are terrible as pocket.

who cares about TG though, the game is balanced for 1v1, in TG you can spam Frank Briton or whatnot all day anyway, and you want to make Byzantines busted in 1v1 to make them still inferior to Franks, Lithuanians etc. in TG anyway.

Maybe because BOTH Franks and Britons need a nerf for TG specifically, and if you random byzantines at that settings feels like a civ loss.

Who goes for paladin as byzantines in 1v1 anyway? Also Logistica+cavalier and paladin upgrades, plus blacksmith upgrades, conscription, and Husbandry, is just too expensive. Byzantines also desn’t get any eco bonus, the only thing is the cheaper advance to imperial age, which is rather minor.

1 Like

The solution is not Logistica. It is GREEK FIRE!
Greek fire should allow them to build fire towers and flamethrowers.

Ok, fine, that’s a joke, but it could be possible I guess.

4 Likes

I gave this balance suggestion like a year ago and people around laughed, instead we got free town patrol to make byzantines great again!

1 Like