Should saracen's camels be buffed?

Yes, Patito strikes again with one of it doubts about balance.

It seems really weird for me the balance for Saracens stables and mounted units. Before starting, I just want to make clear that I’m not saying sarracens are in a weak spot: They have a really solid archer rush in feudal, one of the most open tech-trees of the game. It’s just I’m think they mounted unit situation is rather akward.

The first comparision when we think about saracens camels, is obvious: Indians. Zealotry gives saras camels +30hp, letting them with 10hp more than indians imperial camels. So far so good, but what’s the problem?

Let make some comparisions (assuming ever unit is FU)

saras camels have to hit 10 times a champion to kill him, and takes 13 hits from them before dying
Indians camels have to hit 8 times a champion to kill him, and takes 12 hits from them before dying

saras camels have to hit 5 times a arbalester to kill him, and takes 28 hits from them before dying
Indians camels have to hit 4 times a arbalester to kill him, and takes 32 hits from them before dying

saras camels have to hit 8 times a Halbedier to kill him, and takes 6 hits from them before dying
Indians camels have to hit 6 times a Halbedier to kill him, and takes 5 hits from them before dying

saras camels have to hit 8 times a EEW to kill him, and takes 17 hits from them before dying**
Indians camels have to hit 6 times a EEW to kill him, and takes 16 hits from them before dying**

As we can see, Indians imperial camels stands better againts every unit. this, and the fact that +5 attack againts buildings from indians (and their extra pierce armor) make the Imperial camel a viable unit as a core for an army, which saracens camels are not. HP bonus in a defensive unit won’t make it viable for offensive functions. It would just hold better againts the unit it have to counter.

At this point some of you might say “yeah, well, sarracens camels are still better than Malians/berbers” yes, they are. BUT malians and berbers have cavaliers as viable unit to mix with camels. This way, you can rely on cavalry in both offensive and defensive duties.
Sarracens lack a companion for their camels. Yes, Mamelukes are an awesome unit, but doing castles, mass them, make the elite and zealotry is a lot to do, specially because it most cases, it means you’re transitioning from archers. And on top of that, if you happen to lose some castles, you find yourself without any unit to mix in with.

Yeah, zealotry camels and hussars are good, but they can’t be a core unit for an ofensive army. Take any civ, look at their UU, and if that UU fails, you can always go for the generic unit (Just an example:Mongols have mangudai and FU HCA with a bonus, Celts have Woad Raiders and FU champions with bonuses, Viets have Rattans and arbalesters with extra HP). Yes, I know that in most cases loosing your castles means you’re loosing the game (That’s why wo don’t see that Mongols HCA that much) but again, they still have the chance to do it and to hold on. Not with sarracens. Go for mamelukes, lose some castles, and… GG. Good luck replacing mamelukes with camels.

Again, I’m not saying Sarracens lack options; just the contrary: 99% they can confortably play archers (foot or mounted). Going for the camels is most of the time, unjustified.

What do I propose: Give saracens camels a bonus on attack (+1 from castle age, or maybe +1/+2 in castle/imperial). That way the can become effective againts melee units,while worse than Indians againts ranged units/buildings.

Yeah maybe we should take something awayfrom them, like nerfing their infantry (I wouldn’t touch archery range, since their identity is built arround archers nowadays).

What do you think?

(** calculated without UT affecting EEW for make it simplier)

7 Likes

considering Zealotry still costs more gold than Imperial camel upgrade, yeah its a bit disappointing for the OG camel civ. Instead of giving it for free, how about adding the extra attack effect to Zealotry? Only for camel riders btw, not mamelukes

6 Likes

Camels arent designed to kill non cavalry units. Thry are strictly anti cavalry units and always have been.

If camels were changed to be more well rounded they would have to pay for it elsewhere.

As for Zealotry I think the price reduction it got should have been more.

If they really do make camels more well rounded it really depends how far they want to go with it.

Is camel going to be a general purpose cavalry with anti cav bonus? Or are we talking slight buff to their damage?

1 Like

But this is saracen camels and I doubt making them 9/10 attack is gonna be broken considering thats still lower than a knight with their attack rate (imp camels still have that pierce armor and creation speed reduction)

6 Likes

Are you talking through a tech or baseline?

through zealotry for saracens

2 Likes

that wouldn’t be a big deal. Itd also make up for the awful castle age tech

2 Likes

Make Zealotry more cheaper

My suggestion is making zealotry an camel-exclusive bonus while massively reducing the cost. It’s only so expensive because it adds a lot of worth for mamelukes but that doesn’t help you if you go for camels. To compensate, Mamelukes could get a slight hp buff (but idk, I rarely use them).

“slight” has to be 30 considering a nerf would be bad with their costs. Also their Elite would need to be more expensive since you don’t need to research Zealotry when going lukes

2 Likes

A similar use to imperial camels, maybe not as powerful, but yeah. General use cavalry

as long as its only through a tech, i’m cool with it. if you’re talking just buffing camels baseline attack from where it currently stands so all civs get stronger camels, i’m against that.

I’m talking about buffing baseline attack for saracens camels only

so through a unique tech? or civ bonus?

Civ bonus. To make viable scout into camels. The problem i see is that there’s no point to play stable with saracens

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saracens literally already get 5 civ bonuses as is (without team bonus). also +2 is a huge buff to camel riders, especially for baseline.

flat disagree.

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Actually I like the units of the Saracenes and like to play with them. Their units are strong. But unfortunately they are too expensive and gold intensive. And no Eco bonus does not make it easier.

I prefer to give them some Eco bonus. Best something for gold.

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They have by far the best Market exchange rate, and have basically Free Super Guilds.
That is a great economic bonus.

Eco Bonus does not mean resouerce gathering efficiency.
Eco bonus means it helps you out in sorting your economic efforts to afford all units and upgrades you need.

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hahaha after having just struggled using saracens, it is nice to see people also think they need a buff …

we all know the game favours knights and archers, and when an opposing faction counters archers, its usually a fall back to go knights… which the saracens cant do (as opposed to indians their imp camel fullfils that role) which inherently means there is a strategic weakness, even if they have a “full” tech tree, they are still missing the 2nd most powerful type of unit in the game and have no eco bonus to make up for it (unlike mesos)

3 Likes

Market bonus is one of the best economic bonii in the game.