Should Spanish hard counter Mesoamericans civs?

exactly, which means its the spanish eco, otherwise they do inherently hard counter the civs (BBC vs no BBC, HC, conqs etc)

they dont need to add anti racial advantages as well, teutons dont have an anti goth bonus

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The Spaniards did stomp the Aztecs with superior weaponry, except that the decisive factor wasn’t the guns (of which the Spaniards carried few), but the steel weapons and armour, as well as horses.

While the diseases that the Spaniards brought and their alliances with indigenous enemies of the Aztecs are part of the explanation of how they conquered so thoroughly, that doesn’t really detract from their battlefield superiority over the Aztecs or Incas.

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Eh I still dont think thats accurate

The disease and political instability was the deciding factor. Hell, Incas fought Spain with steel equipment

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…and the fact that everybody hated the Aztecs in the region didn’t help either. Most of the Spanish conquest army was filled with local Native troups which saw ironically in the Spanish a tool to get rid of tyranny…

The fact that most Natives died due to imported illnesses they had no resistance against was not exactly helpful either.

Just look at how our society is/was half paralysed due to one not even that deadly pandemic. Imagine this with a highly increased lethality and like instead of one several illnesses at the same time…

I suggest everybody in this thread to read Charles Mann 1491, which is an excellent book which tackles a lot of lack of knowledge with regards to Precolumbian America.

I’d say it is an absolute must-read for everybody interested in Precolumbian history.

BTW, following the logic of the OP, should Byzantines die to Turks every game too or what? And Mongols crush almost every other civ?

AOE2 had always a light history fantasy note. Almost every single civ in the game got something it didn’t have ingame. Just look at how water is balanced.

That’s what makes the magic of AOE2. It is easy to get to so that the soon 42 civs in the game can easily be picked up.

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Well, the Mangudai already do that, so…

Yay, historical accuracy? 11

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Of course, the idea that the Spaniards should get some kind of unique buff against Mesoamerican civilisations is terrible. I agree with you that AoE 2 is not exactly historical, but giving the Spaniards such a bonus wouldn’t even be historical, because every other Old World civilisation would have to receive the same buff for their use of iron/steel weapons and cavalry.

I think the Aztec tech tree was designed with them being weak to a civ like the Spanish.
Even with Garland Wars, their pikes are worse than halbs vs cav.
Aztecs can do archers sure but they’re definitely not an archer civ, meaning it’s less punishing to use hand cannons against them.
They have strong siege, meaning you’re more likely to use bombards against them.

Some civs in AoE2 are pretty dubious in terms of their theming, but Aztecs are one of the best.
It’s a civ with weaknesses to guns and horses, which is perfect.

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Just because you are fucking ignorant about the topic and want to shit over the rest of the world to make Europe look shinnier doesnt change the facts. The facts is that America was in the perfect state of instability Spain needed for the conquest, and the plague killed like 90% of the population.

Yeah and you are ignoring the entire Incan civil War thing and the assassination of the Sapa Inca by the Spanish.

And this

Is just romantification and kinda feels like 19th century propaganda.

The Europeans were still not very special in the 16th century. Portugal lost a war against Mali while Mali themselves were throwing everything they had at Songhai and Mossi. Spain lost to Mapuche in open battle with similarly sized armies.

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They didn’t hate the Aztecs over human sacrifices, since they did it themselves sometimes to the Aztecs they caught in battle or among their own people. They hated the Aztecs for their taxes which conquered provinces had to provide annual tribute to in various local goods and/or products made in their own city-states. They also were opportunistic and wanted a slice of the pie of the empire seeking to use the Spanish to empower their own city-states’ interests. Of course this backfired in many ways for them later on apart from some nobles which managed to benefit from the collapse and ensuing chaos.

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Okay, so maybe we can use this for a new set of unique technologies.

Smallpox: One third of all mesoamerican units on the field dies, the rest loses 10hp.

Divide and conquer: Instantly converts half of all Aztec military units to you.

Historical accuracy (bonus): Removes any mesoamerican imperial age navy units from the game, and renders those civs unable to make any more.

I think that should make them a pretty hard counter.

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That’s kinda true, but they also gave them monks that just don’t die and Spanish conveniently lack siege engineers so that their BBC never outrange block printing monks, so idk if it’s not just a case of “we think halbs with +4 attack would be OP for this civ” like they did with Vikings. Also siege onager is probably there because else Aztecs only have monks as a late game unit.

Mayans definitely deserve a nerf, just because they have possibly 1-2 counters it doesn’t mean the other civs that don’t counter them should just suck it up.

Aztecs, I’m mostly fine with, even though they are very strong, their whole strength is locked behind Monk micro so it’s fine in my view.

Incas are balanced.

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I mean if you dont know thats fine.

It was in the Batalla de las Cangrejeras

Honestly Im not very interested in keep talking with a Eurocentrist that makes bad taste jokes like “Balkan Civs Matter” so Imma just silence you, at least for a while

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no and leave my meso alone