Thats pretty weak imho, especially since youre replacing what literally carries the civ.
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Debatable. Teuton farms are cheaper upfront but sicilian farms dont need to be reseeded nearly as often. Ive seen sicilians finish a game before reseeding farms a third time just because how much food is on a sicilian farm.
By the time a second seeded farm expires they have been farming for over 45 minutes.
A teuton who seeds his farms twice is only going to hit (assiming he gets heavy plow before second reseed) 32 minutes. His third seed will hit 52 minutes.
The key here is that sicilian farms will last until later in castle age on 1 seed, freeing up crucial wood during esrly castle age.
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I still insist, remove bloodlines, Buff the Serjeant attack in Castle age from 8 to 10 and 11 to 12 for elite, also give them Hussar and Thumb Ring, remove that serjeants spawned from first crusade and replace It with allowing serjeants to build castles, as a result we finally Will see a civ that uses an infantry UU soo Streamlined.
you think should replace Hauberk for the Sicilians
Hauberk should be removed from the game obviously, you cant give a semi-Cataphract pierce armor of a Tarkan. It completely killed Sicilians as an unique civ.
Your suggestions are nice, they actually encourage diversity, rather than having another boom-into-knights civ they can fully utilize Serjeants and Donjon which are legit. A discount to Donjon sounds solid, though not sure if 50% is the right amount.
Another fix suggestion that asks to make an unique unit less unique, so you want them to have the same movement speed as most other unique infantries… Why?
Dont kill diversity for the sake of balance, you can do better than that, besides that the unit is almost nicely balanced. Definitely dont need extra armor.
Exactly.
It’s not just about the value, 1/1 would still make Cavalier the biggest expression of power of this civ rather than being brilliantly unique. It should be a tech that has nothing to do with Cavalry units, they already have a great Cavalier, arguably the best 1v1 version of Cavalier. (and Berbers)
Sicilians die to Archers?
Onagers with SE, Siege Ram, the ability to Tower defence nicely and Champskurl kind of an Unique Unit. So according to your calculations Malians are even worse against Archers?
The problem with this tech is NOT JUST the value but the way it kills Civ’s identity. It should be completely removed.
Besides that, considering how awful Arabia generation is in this version, all civs make Archers and die to Archers.
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Actually, that wpuld be a nice replacement for first crusase, because it allow to spam sergeants while taking settles.
Without hauberk quite often they do, yes. Onagers rarely work on open maps and serjeant are so incredibly slow (besides needing castle to produce, donjon isn’t worth the res just for production imo) they die to archers until you can spam elite. That’s why malians champskarls are so much better. They already have the pierce armor no matter what unit upgrades you have and you can make them from rax. To make serjeants viable vs arbs in early imp you’d need give (non elite) serjeants +4 base pa or change something else about the unit like movement speed or so.
Or just the give the civ last archer armor. This way they can defend just fine from archers until they get to their more expensive infantry or siege options and nobody needs hauberk.
The thing is they need a clear weakness. Even one of the most powerful civilizations the Mayans have a terrible weakness to late game Goths. Serjeants can tank good vs archers. They are in a much better position to counter archers compared to the burmese. Even if their skirmishers lack thumb ring and the final armour upgrade.
Mayans have one bad matchup, sicilians without hauberk struggle vs basically any decent archer civ. And irrespective of that they still have weaknesses most notably against strong melee civs (teutons, slavs, bulgarians) as sicilians have worse melee units and no the greatest ranged options either.
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Rather than filling holes in tech trees of civs (which is the most uninspired way to balance a civ) we need to switch these 2 UT Sicilians have to techs that encourage aggressiveness, not mass TCs. Cheaper Donjons tech is blessfull. At this point Sicilians would be as good as Malians.
You understimate Donjon defence vs. Archer civs. We just to increase the viablity of this building. (and obviously fix Arabia)
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Not even close
The champskarl is much cheaper, and produces much easier and faster.
It is superior at fighting archers than the expensive, expensive to produce, slow to produce serjeant
Does this actually help? It hardly helped them pre buff.
which is widely considered normal for a cavalry civ… it’s pretty much what you expect: a strong cavalry go-to unit, like bulgarians, berbers, poles, and many other have, but all with a unique twist. before hauberk sicilians were above average and had not that strong of a cavalry focus , so it definilty is not a bad idea to give them a tech to make their cavalry theme show. that said, the tech should be balanced, and hey, not any civ could be unique in a game like AOE2 which is made of small bonuses from a solid common core. if you want a game where every faction feels unique go play warhammer maybe.
before hauberk they were a very underwhelming civ, below average in performance, that’s why the devs buffed it with hauberk, so it clearly need to preserve its actual power. it just need to be less heavy on one unit
4 Likes
They could get something strong as a replacement. But something that isn’t so cancerous
Their eco takes too long to kick in, which is their greatest flaw
So it feels like their late game needs to be overtuned to make up for it.
It is kind of ridiculous that they have the most tanky cavalier in the game. There should be so many other ways to help them counter archers other than this. Again, they counter archers much better than Burmese.
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Why should they even get replaced? It was given to them because they had an abysmal pick rate at all levels. Civ has zero eco bonus, so even now you have to fight hard till you can get to a point where you have a huge number of Hauberk cavaliers ready to kill all the archers.
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Let me ask you this, what do Slavs do against Arbalester civs?
Same goes for Celts and Teutons, all Infantry civs but Goths struggle. After all Arbalester is the best unit in the game. So yeah the build up into Serjeants is not ideal, we badly NEED new UTs that will assist this nerative. It’s not fully balanced indeed, however Hauberk is far from being the solution.
The scouts?? Like comon since when does the tc castle carey them
No. What enables them to actually hold on in pro play is first crusade. So by removing that for some ut that doesnt do a whole lot, especially by the time you can research it, youre heavily nerfing them.
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this UT is completely and utterly useless
compared to 1st crusade that can be very powerful
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yeah that what i sayd, preserve the power by tweaking the overtuned stuff and buff the underused ones
making the buff less impactful, like +1/+1 but giving it to more unit could be a way to go, much like the tatars UT or the Italians UT
not true, since their lower attack makes them equal at best compared to generic paladin against a ball of arbalesters in a fight. SOTL even made a video testing it. if the +1/+2 is too strong, then just reduce it to +1/+1 and maybe swap the tech into the castle age slot, and make it affect all cavalry, and maybe infantry or serjeants, would be quite simple tweak while buffin other aspect of the civ military like infantry
also personally i do not even see hauberk as OP as some make it sound since it’s not like sicilians are always picked, they are average, and what’s the problem if they have tanky cavalier? some civ is bound to have “the best” at something. sicilians cavaliers maybe the tankyest but poles and berbers are the cheapest, malians and bulgarians are the strongest in damage, and so on, but noone complains about that.
i get more the sentiment that makes the cavalier a go-to options and does not show space for any infantry play, but to help that, you can’t simply nerf hauberk or theill return into the dust, you have to buff the infantry department, thus why making the tech +1/+1 but broad to infantry as well could be interesting
maybe another options could be to make the tech a bit more expensive and slower to research
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