In a world of one-dimensional civ design, yes. As the franchise evolved, the units took on multiple interacting features – type (inf, ranged, cav, siege), role (anti-infantry, anti-building, etc.), and type of attack (melee, ranged, both, etc.). So there are anti-ranged ranged units (skirmishers), anti-infantry cavalry (lancers, other heavy cavalry), anti-cavalry cavalry units, etc. Not every plausible permutation can fit into the game necessarily, but there there is a whole lot more out there than cav beating ranged beating inf beating cav.
This system is used to great effect in the franchise.
Thats how I see it as well… the question is: Does that make sense gameplay-wise or does it break the counter-dynamics (compared to the AOE2/3 systems).
As shame we cannot discuss that further yet…Stasi hört mit .
It’s a very beautiful pentagon. A type of units is good against two types and bad against the other two.
The skirmisher in AOE3 can counter heavy infantry and ranged cavalry, and they are countered by melee cavalry and artillery.
That’s why I hope that the counter system will be like this. (This is not the current counter system in AOE4, it’s just my imagination.)
This is an example to construct the counter system. A type of units is good against 3 types and bad against the other 3. Most units comply with the counter system, even if there are special units that can counter atypical units, it’s okay.
II really like counter systems that are emergent, rather than hard-coded with special attack bonuses. For example, in a lot of games slash damage beats trash, trash beats single-target damage, single target damage beats tanks, and tanks beat splash damage. It’s a full countering system with no artificial attack bonuses.
AOE3 and beyond ALMOST gets there, but there are still some attack bonuses and especially with spears. Spears don’t do extra damage to cavalry in real life- they’re so effective because the horse won’t charge into them and a pike is a lot longer than a lance. So they keep the cavalry at bay. I think trying to simulate that interaction is a lot more interesting than sneaking in +20 damage vs cavalry.
spears are effective vs cavalry because you can outrange the guy on the horse and because it is a lot simpler stabbing them with a spear than slashing them with a sword.
A reason why I like the idea of pike having a little range, so that multiple lines of them can attack at the same time
But to do much more would take a different counter system all together because it would have to be based on the ability (dexterity, weapon, speed, skill) to land a hit (on a moving or armored target) and then that hit making a wound, a glancing blow off armor, or a kill strike. As to get that realistic then what is the difference between a spear stab and a sword thrust? they should all pretty much do the same damage and have the same health, but have those other attributes kind of role play the battle for a win.
Another thing would be just that if you charge a pike (without flanking) they reflect the charge damage. So you take a big hit as you impale yourself on the pikes.
As long as you work it out such that cavalry are not cost-effective against spearmen you have a counter.
I guess I am ok with minor damage bonuses- it was just when halberds did like 30 damage to cavalry and 6 to everything else it felt too much. Too artificial.
Lord of the Rings Battle for Middle Earth works like this. If you charge your cavalary in Pikes they take damage trampling them and if the Pikes put into formation, you literally lose your entire cavalary if you try to trample over them.
But the gameplay is totally different from Age of empires, this will not work at all.
Javelins fell out of use because they were primarily for disrupting heavy infantry formations before the main clash. Early Medieval armies, for example, the Saxons and Danes, used shield walls where javelins would have been used a lot. Once cavalry started becoming more prominent javelins were not used as often.
Always thought AoE2 was funny in this way because archers should counter skirmishers.
I agree that emergent counter systems rather than straight attack bonuses are more interesting.
I think it’s very hard to do that in an RTS though. Spears need to counter cavalry, but without having an attack bonus or an ability or something that only affects cavalry, any other change you make to them would also make them more effective against other units too. For example extra range just also makes them better against other infantry.
You can have different armor types and attack types, but that’s pretty much the same thing as attack bonuses against certain units.
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