What about Moravians?
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I assume they are covered by the neighbouring Bohemians
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Maybe if the in-game Bohemians weren’t pretty much exclusively hussites.
That’s the issue of having to make civs different gameplay-wise, AOE2 is not a grand strategy game. If the Bohemians were more than the Hussites they would be very close from the Teutons with an heavy HRE army.
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Let’s…not go there.
20 characters
I would pick:
Must-Have: Slavs rename into Ruthenians, Romanians, Serbs.
Optional: Croatians or Albanians.
Also, just pointing it out, Moldavians are Vlachs, Wallachians are Vlachs.
It goes like this:
Latin split into:
- Iberian Group
- Frankish Group
- Italic Group
- Vlach Group (Eastern Romance)
Vlachs split into:
- Aromanian Group (more mixed with Greeks)
- Meglenoromanian Group (more mixed with Italians)
- Istroromanian (more mixed with Croats)
- Romanian Group (more mixed with Bulgarians)
Romanian group:
- Wallachian
- Moldavian
- Transylvanian
Not important, but saying “Vlachs and Moldavians” is like saying “American and Texan”.
Unit dialogue is going to be 90% identical? they all spoke different languages.
I haven’t seen as much disagreement on what balkan civs to pick as much as you said there is, what posts made you believe that is the case? I haven’t read that so I’m curious.
Architecture set is again very simple:
Eastern European: Romanians (or Wallachians & Moldavians)
Eastern European/ Byzantine if added as a new set: Serbs, Bulgarians.
Mediterranean: Croats, Bosnians, Albanians.
The audience argument… is in fact a good argument… for the Balkan DLC.
I agree that Romania has 20 Million, Serbia 7 Million, Croatia 3.8 Million, Bosnia 3.2 Million, Albania 2.8 million, but how many of them play Age of Empires 2?
In terms of playerbase:
Romania 20 Million - place 32 in terms of player numbers, above Porgual, Greece, Hungary, Bulgaria, countries who already have a civ in AoE2. And we didn’t even add Moldova to that who are basically also Romanians.
Serbia 7 Million - place 78, Croatia 3.8 Million - place 62, which yes small, but let’s look at per capita. Romania has 20 Million and Serbia/Croatia way smaller, per capita they are doing really fine. Not to mention, if they are added in AoE2, their numbers will increase.
Which is not something I can say for African or Asian audience if we are talking strictly in terms of interest from the audience.
It is indeed not very surprising that those countries are rarely represented in any games. But the reason is very different from what you may assume.
Western Europe was a very Anglosaxon-centric world until the past 10 years. When they realized other cultures exist and took an interest in other cultures. Like Africa and Asia. But no Eastern Europe because they are too white, so they were jumped because they were more similar to them in favor of more exotic ones. I guess diversity isn’t a good thing when you aren’t diverse enough from the ones calling the diversity.
Looking objectively at the numbers above, there is a market there. Romania at least is above so many other countries already in the game in terms of AoE2 popularity in their country. But it’s easier to sell “these people who are not at all like us” than “these people who are 50% like us but 50% not like us”.
For anglosaxons, the world begins in Los Angeles and ends in Berlin. I think the fundamentals of the west did not change even with their diversity movement.
There’s a reason USA failed to build a stable democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. They simply have no understanding of other cultures.
I read that US demanded the new Afghan collaborative government’s soldiers to cut their beards, because soldiers in US army cut their beard.
If you heard nothing wrong with that statement that’s the American education system’s fault 100%. Spoiler alert: For Afghan men their beard is their pride, asking them to cut their beard is like someone asking you to cut your ####### ###############
I cannot understate how fatal such a small thing was. And yes it was small, from the Amercain POV, because they did not understand and respect the culture of the people from there. For an American, cutting your beard was no big thing, so surely, that must be for someone else the same, right? right? nope.
You may think I made a small tangent, but I cannot overstate how important the beard is to an Afghan. So yes, it may be a small tangent, but one with huge ramifications, don’t think that USA failed in Afghanistan because of the beard issue, but because of similar issues that add up. And I’m not saying “Afghans wanted sharia law” because that’s not it. It was simply a lack of understanding, care and respect for their culture simply because they did not care. It’s those small things that add up and eventually become bigger things. This is why “American Colonies” failed everywhere except in the anglosaxon world. They even tried to make China democratic in the 90s without understanding Chinese culture at all (not communist, chinese culture), look how well that worked out for them.
But the Americans did not see it that way, because, once again, the world starts in Los Angeles and ends in Berlin.
So yes, that’s the reason those countries are rarely represented in any games. In a nutshell. Not diverse enough for diversity. And the anglosaxon world being too ignorant to see the other 50% that isn’t at all like the rest of the anglosaxon world.
It’s not out of lack of potential profit, just look at the numbers. It’s out of ignorance.
Nobody is born with all this knowledge, but everybody is born with the capacity to listen.
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That’s true…if they brought in the Bohemians it was because of the Hussites, and I don’t think they’ll bring in the Moravians anymore…
[quote=“DairyChimera759, post:212, topic:232381”]
Romania 20 Million - place 32 in terms of player numbers, above Porgual, Greece, Hungary, Bulgaria, countries who already have a civ in AoE2. And we didn’t even add Moldova to that who are basically also Romanians.
Serbia 7 Million - place 78, Croatia 3.8 Million - place 62, which yes small, but let’s look at per capita. Romania has 20 Million and Serbia/Croatia way smaller, per capita they are doing really fine. Not to mention, if they are added in AoE2, their numbers will increase.
Which is not something I can say for African or Asian audience if we are talking strictly in terms of interest from the audience.
Yes, due to player population I don’t see the Balkans having their own civs, although due to history they could have them (Serbian Empire and Kingdom of Croatia and also include a campaign for the Magyars with Matthias Corvinus, one with Tomislav for the Croats and another with Stefan Dusan with the Serbians) (and obviously give Dracula to the Vlacs)… P.S. seeing that table I hope that next year they give us Argentina and Brazil in AoE 3 (they are the Latin countries that play AoE the most by far)…
Yes, it’s just that it’s all of the West and Western Europe… note that in Eastern Europe they only escaped from Russian influence in 1991 and joined the EU in 2004 (it’s a relatively new region in the modern Western world)… in 1991 the West reached as far as Berlin, today it reaches as far as Kyiv…
Yes, I agree… In addition to being American-centric, the video game industry was ignorant of areas outside the First World (i.e. Second World aka Eastern Europe and Third World aka LATAM, Sub-Saharan Africa, India and SEA)…
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Historical significance matters more than current player count, for example asking for a civ to represent Brazil or the USA wouldn’t be anywhere near the top of the list (and certainly not in a form looking even remotely like the modern country), while the Byzantines were a major power at the time which trumps Greece only being a medium-sized country now. Jurchens are one of the most asked civs despite the last time Manchus had an “independant” country was 1931-1945 (even then it was a puppet of Japan), and player counts from China cannot tell how many players are Han Manchus Mongols from Inner Mongolia…
I don’t know medieval romanian history enough to judge, Dracula portrays them under the influence of several foreign powers (Ottomans Hungary…).
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This is a very important point to raise. And people need reminding of it when suggesting such relatively small-scale civs.
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It wouldn’t say that’s the case, Korea was added because Microsoft wanted to rival Starcraft in Korea, according to the devs.
But regarding significance, I would say the issue is the stigma of being “the Balkans” rather than objectively their significance. If Age of Empires 2 stopped at the Conquerors I would agree with you that the Balkans have no place there, but we already have 47 civs, many of them less significant than the Serbia and Romania.
Dracula portrays them under the influence of several foreign powers (Ottomans Hungary…)… because the developers didn’t make a Romanian civ. The whole point about Dracula is that he wanted independence from the foreign powers, to not be a vassal to either the Ottomans or Hungary.
Serbia was an Empire. And Wallachia & Moldavia were never incorporated in the Ottoman Empire, always ######## Arguably defened Christianity more than Hungary.
To further reinforce the point about popularity > significance. Dracula was only the most famous anti-Ottoman fighter because well, vampire stories. But there was another who was objectively better by all metrics. If he would have came from England, France or Germany he would have been regarded Napoleon or Caesar.
Stephen the Great, let me tell you his CV and you be the judge if I’m exaggerating:
- He ruled for 47 years, average lifespan of a Moldavian ruler at that time was 2-5 years.
- He military supported Vlad the Impaler take the throne of Wallachia, twice.
- At different points he was at war with every neighbour: Hungary, Poland, Tatars, Wallachians and Ottomans.
- Out of 49 battles in his lifetime, he won 47, only losing 2 times to the Ottomans, at Razboieni and Chilia, all other battles he participated in were Moldavian victories.
Here are some of his best victories:
And here are his 2 defeats:
On top of it all, he wasn’t even tyrant-like, at least according to his letters, here are some quotes from him:
"I don’t like wars.”
“We do not owe anything to anyone and we never oppressed anyone, we want to live in understanding with the neighbours that God gave us, as well as with faraway countries.”
“If you already have so much money and power, what are you doing in my country?” - Stephen the Great, to Mehmed the Conqueror
“It’s not Moldavia of Stephen, it’s Stephen of Moldavia, Moldavia does not belong to me, nor to us, it belongs to our childrens’ children forevermore. And our childrens’ children will forever remember our exalted victory.”
“Deeds speak louder than words, as in history only deeds remain.”
“The strongest ally is the respect and loyality of your own people.”
“A king does not only win battles, but also the respect and the admiration of his own people.”
“The will is the sword with which you open your own path towards destiny.”
“Diplomacy doesn’t mean weakness, but intelligence and the ability to avoid useless conflicts.”
“A true king is not only the ruler of the realm but the protector of the most vulnerable.”
“Our values and traditions are like a stone fortress, strong and impossible to conquer”.
“Every decision is like a brick in the construction of our history.”
“The pride of a woman is the man who wears with respect the crown of her soul and protects her honor with the sword of his courage.”
“While others spend their time blaming each other, we build our own future.”
“When honor and duty calls you, there is no turning back.”
The Pope called him “Champion of Christ” although he was Orthodox, and was sometimes nicknamed “Stephen the Holy” even while he was alive.
He paid the debt of Mount Athos to the Ottomans out of his own coffins so that the Ottomans would leave the monastery alone.
His piety was equal to his skill in battle. Of course, being the Medieval age one would question whether his piety was genuine, but by the end of his life, he built a total of 47 monasteries, many of them still exist to this day:
You could call him a religious fanatic, but his 47 years rule was the golden age of Moldavia, in the end the Ottomans didn’t conquer Moldavia.
And I saved the best for last: After he won the Battle of Vaslui, he sent letters to all Christian powers asking them to start a new Crusade against the Ottomans, but none accepted because they were too busy fighting each other. His only support was a few thousand Poles and Szekely.
This is the letter in English:
To the illustrious and mighty lords of all Christendom, to all the lands where this letter may reach, I, Stephen Voievod, by the grace of God, Lord of the Land of Moldavia, extend my friendly greetings to you all to whom I write, and wish you all the best. I inform Your Lordships that the infidel Emperor of the Turks has long been and still is the destroyer of all Christendom, and every day he devises ways to subjugate and annihilate all Christendom. Therefore, I make known to Your Lordships that, at the past Epiphany, the aforementioned Turk sent a great army into our land against us, numbering 120,000 men, with its chief captain being Soliman Pasha Beglerbeg; with him were all the courtiers of the aforementioned Turk, the Lord of the Land of Wallachia with all his power, and Assan Beg, and Ali Beg, and Grana Beg, and Oşu Beg, and Valtival Beg, and Serefaga Beg, the lord of Sofia, and Cusenra Beg, and Piri Beg, son of Isaac Pasha, with all his janissaries.
These above-named were all the great captains with their armies. Hearing and seeing these things, I took up the sword and, with the help of our Almighty Lord God, went against the enemies of Christendom, defeated them, and trampled them underfoot, and put all of them under the edge of my sword; for this, praised be our Lord God. Hearing about this, the pagan Emperor of the Turks resolved to seek revenge and come, in the month of May, with his own head and all his power against us and to subjugate our land, which is the gateway of Christendom and which God has protected until now. But if this gate, which is our land, should be lost, God forbid, then all Christendom will be in great danger.
Therefore, I beseech Your Lordships to send your captains to aid me against the enemies of Christendom, while there is still time, as the Turk now has many adversaries and is occupied with people from all sides standing against him with swords in hand. And I, for my part, pledge, on my Christian faith and with my oath, that I will stand firm and fight to the death for the Christian law, with my own head. So must you also do, by sea and land, after, with the help of Almighty God, I have cut the Emperor’s right hand. Therefore, be prepared, without delay.
Suceava, on the feast day of Saint Paul, January 25, in the year of Our Lord 1475.
Stephen Voievod, Lord of the Land of Moldavia.
This is what other people wrote about him:
“Also, the voivode of Moldavia, named Stephen, a voivode, which means a sort of governor, for he holds all of Moldavia, both Lower and Upper. This voivode has never wanted to take an oath or submit to King Matthias, and has constantly waged war against him, refusing to recognize any of his claims to the crown. This voivode fought against two armies in a single day, that of the said King Matthias and of the Turks, and won both battles.” - Jean Molinet, French chronicler (1435-1507)
“This Stephen, Voivode of Moldavia, was skilled and fortunate, for at one time he defeated one hundred and fifty thousand Turks, in addition to many other frequent and significant battles with them. He also drove Matthias, the brave king of Hungary, out of the land of Moldavia and out of the Székely land, destroying a large Hungarian army alongside him and wounding the king himself with three arrows, near the town of Baia. After this victory, he also took the Székely land. He also defeated the Tatars several times, and likewise, against all expectations, he defeated King Albert of Poland in Bukovina. Any historian can rightfully praise him for this glorious fortune with such a small country. About him, the Moldavians and Wallachians sing constantly, at all their gatherings, reciting in their language: “Stephen, Stephen the Voivode, Stephen, Stephen the Voivode defeated the Turks, defeated the Tatars, defeated the Hungarians, and the Poles.” While traveling to Turkey, I saw in Bucharest, the capital city, at the court of the ruler of Wallachia, where I was a guest at a feast, a portrait hanging on the wall of the ruler’s chamber, painted on wood in the old style, showing this Stephen, tall in stature, sitting with a royal crown on his head. […] Due to his immense bravery, they consider him a saint.” - Maciej Stryjkowski, Kronika polska (cca. 1547-1593)
“On Tuesday, the 17th of January, Stephen, Voivode of Moldavia, defeated in a great massacre the army of 120,000 men of Mahomed, who had been aided by the Wallachians after their country had been subdued. Stephen fought this battle near the Racovăț swamp and the Bârlad River, with his army and 5,000 Székelys, whose land, having been torn from the Kingdom of Hungary, he had subjected to himself. But the victory came at a cost to his own men; for all the front lines, in which the Székelys were also present, were crushed by the Turks, and great danger loomed, until Stephen himself threw himself into the midst of the Turks, who were mad with the joy of victory, and with the wondrous power of God, he annihilated the Turkish ranks, having barely about 40,000 fighters, most of whom were peasants. Stephen did not become arrogant after this victory; instead, he fasted for 40 days, consuming only bread and water. He commanded the entire country that no one should dare attribute the victory to him, but only to God, even though everyone knew that the triumph of that day was solely due to him. His entire army grew rich from the spoils taken from the Turks: gold, silver, purple cloth, horses, and expensive tools. The fortresses of Bessarabia, which had passed from him to the Turks, were all returned to him. He elevated many peasants to the rank of boyars. Very few Turks managed to escape by fleeing, for those who tried to head toward the Danube were cut down by the Moldavians, who had better horses, or were swept away by the waves and drowned.” (…) - Jan Długosz, Polish chronicler (1415-1480)
"Olbracht, the King of Poland, conspired with his brother Alexander, the Duke of Lithuania, to drive Stephen out of the voivodeship of Moldova and to send their brother Zygmunt in his place, after which they intended to march against the Turks. Gathering all the Poles, they set out against Moldova, spreading the word that they were heading to fight the Turks. Realizing the deception, Stephen sent a message to the king, saying, “How is it that if you are going against the Turks, you are not taking the usual route towards them, but instead are heading into my land, as I see it? Know this, you will repent.” The king, however, captured the envoys and imprisoned them in Lviv. Many bad omens appeared for the king, but despite this, he entered Moldova and laid siege to Suceava, the seat of Moldova, though he could not take it, as the fortress defended itself fiercely, and many Poles perished. Hearing that Stephen had gathered Moldavians and was advancing on him, and seeing that his siege of the fortress was fruitless, the king decided to retreat. Stephen pursued them and caught up with them in the forests of Bukovina, ordering his men to block all roads and passages. He also commanded that the trees in narrow places be felled. When the Poles arrived, Stephen struck them from one side while ordering the forest to be brought down upon them from the other. He mercilessly annihilated them there, chasing them to the border, fighting all the way. The defeat of the Poles was so great that the king barely returned with ten men, and from that point on, the king fell ill. Thus, the saying arose: “In the time of King Albert, the nobility perished in Poland.” - Hustânskaia letopis, Russian chronicle
“The reason I did not write to Your Highness earlier was due to the severe illness I suffered from the first day of August, when I arrived in Moldova, and throughout the past month of October. Despite this grave illness, I presented myself on the 22nd of August to this renowned lord, Duke Stephen, and fulfilled my duty as a loyal servant to Your Serenity with the proper words owed to a lord as great as he is. He greeted me very kindly, with signs and words of great friendship, among which he said to me: “I did not want to bring a doctor from any [other] part of the world except from among my friends, whom I am sure love me,” and he even told me: “I am surrounded by enemies on all sides and have fought 36 battles since I have been the lord of this country, of which I have won 34 and lost 2.” To clarify for Your Highness, I will recount the honorable state of this renowned lord, his son, his subjects, and his country, as well as the events that followed and what occurs daily among these northern lords. As for the aforementioned lord, he is a very wise man, worthy of much praise, greatly loved by his subjects because he is merciful and just, always vigilant and generous. He appears well in body for his age, if not for this ailment that has afflicted him, though I hope, with God’s help, to bring him some relief, as far as I can tell at this early stage. His son, Lord Bogdan Voivode, follows the example of his lordly father. He is as modest as a girl and a brave man, a friend of virtues and virtuous people, about 25 years old. The subjects are all brave men, sharp and not made to rest on pillows but for war on the battlefield. This most renowned lord can raise 60,000 capable men, 40,000 cavalry and 20,000 infantry. The land is fertile, very beautiful, and well-situated, full of animals and all kinds of provisions, with everything except olive oil. Grain is sown in April and May, and wines like those from Friuli are obtained in August and September. The pastures are very good. In this country, more than 100,000 horses could be kept. From here, one can reach Constantinople in 15 or 20 days, which is why I humbly remind Your Highness that from here, the flanks of this treacherous Turkish sultan could be attacked. From what many trustworthy men and merchants coming from Constantinople tell me, the Turks have great fear of this lord and of the Christians who might make their way through this land.” - Matteo Muriano, Venetian Doctor
Was that not significant enough?
You could make the argument that no matter how many victories he had or what was said about this he wasn’t a conqueror like Napoleon or Caesar, due to being from a small country yes but tough luck.
But he was still far more successful than Vlad the Impaler. So why did everyone hear about Vlad the Impaler but almost no one about Stephen the Great? the vampire is a much better story than a pious man good who beat all his larger neighbours.
It’s not about significance, it’s about popularity.
And here, it will always be the issue of being “the Balkans” rather than objectively a measurement of their significance. Serbia & Bulgaria had empires and hardly anyone knows about them.
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I am in favor of the Slavs separating as different civilizations, an example of this could be:
muscovites
Ruthenians
Vlachs
They could add a set of new architecture for these new civilizations and each one could have their own unique unit in the castle and some new technologies depending on the historical value of the civilization, the Muscovites could have the streltsy as a unique unit, the Vlachs could have a Boyars rework and Ruthenians could have a unique horse archer
Pretty sure people know about these.bulgarians are already ingame as well.
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It’s true, but I also believe that if the Koreans had not been picked, they would still have been introduced in a later DLC, perhaps something like The Forgotten.
Wrong direction. If people want a potential civ, they should compare it to other potential civs rather than any existing civ. You can’t delete an existing civ to have a slot transferred to it, so it just competes with other potential civs for the remaining empty slots.
In addition, whether it is important or not is very different from person to person as we come from different parts of the world. I don’t know which existing civs you consider less important than the Serbs, but dwelling on that won’t do very little help to convince people to support the introduction of the Serbs.
Which made the civ’s design rushed that had to be heavily reworked several times, to still be considered sub-par. The Koreans are an example to show why a civ shouldn’t be put solely because of player count, despite having some solid historical arguments and good potential if done right.
(They kinda repeated that for the Vietnamese in RoR but RoR)
Let’s see what the devs have planned.
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Pretty sure most players know about Bulgarians because of AoE2.
Despite being a great power in the dark ages. On the other hand they likely knew about medieval Ireland before, which was objectively far less significant than Bulgaria in this time period, which raises my point again that it’s not about significance, it’s about popularity.
Even the name “dark ages” is telling. Because it was a dark age for Europe, not for the Muslim world, where it was a golden age. Which one was more significant at the time? the Muslim world, by far. Which one is more popular? the European world, by far.
To clarify, I’m not saying this as is a bad thing. I completely understand that someone from Tennessee would know more about Tennessee and surrounding areas than India, I’m just pointing out this phenomena.
@UpmostRook9474 But there was a time, when those added civs were potential civs as well, and were picked over the Romanians and Serbs, meaning that significance is not the first thing the devs look after.
DukeofLorraine said that historical significance matters more than current player count, I merely pointed out Stephen the Great (see what he did in the long post) being not so famous that hardly anyone heard about him, despite look at his CV, leading to my point that this not about significance, it’s about popularity.
Who would the western audience respond most to? Dracula, the Dracula, or a ruler that they never heard about no matter if he had far better achivements than Dracula and won 47 out of 49 battles almost always outnumbered?
And popularity is partially showed by the current player count.
@DukeOfLorraine Correlation is not causality.
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And Croatia had a kingdom from the 10th century until the 12th century when it was annexed to Hungary and then the Republic of Ragusa from the 14th century until the 19th century…
Yes, in fact Kaesong was part of a campaign planned for the Koreans, so if the Koreans had not reached The Conquerors with Noryang Point, they would have reached The Forgotten with Kaesong…
… How does it raise your point when we do have Bulgarians in game and not Irish?
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Celts cover both Scots & Irish.
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Yeah, and Bulgarians were split from the Slavs years ago now while Celts are still an umbrella, sooo…
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True but the need was more pressing for the Slavs who cover nearly half of Europe, than the Celts at this time.
Besides, AOE2 is not a grand strategy game, how different would the Scots & Irish be gameplay-wise ? Britons are already used to cover the Welsh (longbows).
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