So how are the Mongols supposed to have a chance against the English?

I feel like the Mongols are in a tough spot right now as they have so much potential but at the same time they are VERY hard to play. Over time I feel like either they will get buffed or the community is just going to learn how to play with them in certain situations. I feel like buffing them may not be the right way to go though. Mainly because of the potential that they bring in the right hands from what I have seen. If anything they would need a rework and not a buff if they are just that hard to play for the majority of the community. But at the same time I feel like this is a good thing, as it gives some players a goal to master this hard to play civ.

I don’t have a problem with their archers, it’s ok that they’re strong. The problem is that the Rus, French, English and HRE all have early armored units that they can use to counter them. Delhi, China and Abassid have good economic and defensive capabilities. Mongols have literally none of those, we rely on traders to have a good economy but they are easy to disrupt and very risky, which is exacerbated by the fact that our cavalry is so expensive and has no armor therefore dying very easily.

Easily disruptable economy + easy to kill units that are expensive = you are on the backfoot before the game even begins

Well, you can be very lame and go for the tc rush. No civ can really beat that atm.
Or if you don’t wanna go that route then you can raid a bit but just take the map and go greedy. Get 2nd tc up, don’t let the english player leave his base. If he just turtles too much take the sacred sites, and if he leaves his base to attack u then use your mobility to harass vills

I beat English as Mongols other day. I made a few villagers, scouted sheep, made ovoo, did faster packed buildings tech and made stable next to ovoo. I moved my TC out to his base and kept moving it around to snipe his villagers/drive him off resources. I made horsemen to harass him further using the ovoo 2x horsemen technique to speed up.

I was producing horsemen pretty much the entire game nonstop and later on knights. I made the market landmark silvertree at back of my base in corner and set up trade line with neutral market in back. Had 50+ traders going all bringing in loads of gold, food and wood thanks to silk road. I used my horsemen to bring down his council hall landmark. I eventually withdrew my TC to bring it back home and producing villagers again. He had walled up and put longbowmen on walls at this point but I just kept massing horsemen on the hill above his base where he can’t see me but I can see him thanks to elevation line of site.

I put the landmark that heals my units near that hill so can pull back and heal sometimes. I then made a lot of trebs and hit 200 pop cap went in and crushed him while having a tonne of resources and military queued. He just tried to tower rush me making a load of towers stretching from his base to mine in fog of war but it wasn’t very effective against my knights with blacksmith upgrades etc.

That’s absolutely not true, I’m sorry but that’s a l2p issue here.
Especially with the ovoo, mongols are really strong against timing attacks since they can recruit a few horses for basically half cost.

And beyond timings, cav + cav archers is a viable composition to play with.

That’s also not necessarily true.
Longbowmen become absolutely garbage once you get into macrophase as mongols.

It sounds to me that overall you use the unit as static frontline and backliners with direct engagements and maybe HRE or English are better for you then.
Mongols, due to the mangudai and raiding bonus they get, want to stretch out engagement times and constantly reangle or just ignore big engagements for the sake of running through his base if he’s in the defensive already.
And english are really defensive.

That’s a nice argument you got there. No reasons, no explanations, nothing. Please explain to me what isn’t true then. Is it not true that Mongol cavalry is a lot more expensive than English Longbows, but die just as fast due to not having any armor? Am I wrong when I say that it gets countered by the much cheaper Spearmen?

What does timing have to do with anything? A couple horses die in the blink of an eye against an army of Longbows.

Against pretty much every other Civ, yeah, but against english you will lose every time with that comp. Your frontline will die to his spearmen super fast and your mangudai can’t even attack Longbows before taking heavy losses due to the short range.

What other choice is there? run around while longbows shoot me to death? even just trying to reposition your cavalry means you will lose a couple units just due to longbows focusing down your units while you run around doing nothing. This is literally not a problem with Knights but with Light Cavalry you cannot just be moving around all the time, they are too fragile.

Not against Mongols they aren’t. Against HRE, Rus, English and French they will be, because they have access to armored units. Delhi, Abassid and Chinese are designed to defend very well and can just wall up to buy time until age 3. Mongols cannot do any of this. You cannot counter his units, and cannot defend as well as everyone else, and you can’t be aggressive either against Longbows which will snipe you down while you try to run through his base.

Why just not open with 2 stable then archery 30 sec after? It’s what i am doing with Abassid and i don’t think it must be different with mongol.

You cut out my explanation by missquoting me and then complain about no explanation or reason?
De fk?
I said:
Longbow timing push with hall = stable on ovoo. You produce horses for 65/10 there technically if I remember correctly with double training and horses are a hardcounter to longbows.
Longbow big army composition = cav + cav archer still viable composition. In general mangonels can help but you shouldn’t really need them.
Knights + Light horses still shred the backline, if he has a spear front just deny the engagement a bit and run around while mangudai do their work by running through.
Having the khan buff and castle age landmark buff makes your cav insanely huge…

Any single units die in a blink to an eye to an army of everything.
You exagurate insanely hard to try to fit situations towards your conclusion instead of trying to step back a bit and watch it in the context of things.
In general, horses counter archers.
Yes, even longbowmen.

Yes if you take fights insanely poorly you do, which I explained before as beeing a l2p issue.
If you take really bad engagements, that’s on you to fix.
And ofc you can also take really good engagements but lose to a bigger army as well.
Overall it sounds like you want to play big static army and leapfrog forward like English/HRE.
Maybe that’s more fitting and less frustrating for your playstyle.

Your mangudai trade while walking around as well… no fight is absolutely free for anyone.
Beside that, you only need one good eco raid and he can’t replenish anything anymore anyway, and that’s where mangudai exceed above absolutely everything in this game.

Not really true, their HP pool is huge for a unit and they do okay.
Beside that, knights are your only goldheavy unit anyway so you’ll get knightheavy armies at some point.

They are, they cannot play agressive into mongols except for all ins.
Hall opener cheese is absolute suicide against stuff like french/rus or mongols.

Again:
If you want to we can practice the matchup in 1v1s.
You got my username on steam, feel free to add me and tell me who you are so I can accept and play a bit with you.

Honestly I think they messed up pretty bad disabling early lancers in Feudal age. That was the play against English before. Mongol seems to slow and not good at cav agression. In the beta they were really fun to play with those early lancers. Now your better off playing infantry and rams, which is odd for Mongols… I mean french and rus have early knight but mongols cant have early lancers? why&??

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You can’t really go mangudai against the English and my impression of the games so far (I’ve been playing mongols 90% and HRE 10%) is that its rough against the English until you get to age 3. Pumping out double horsemen and building regular archers is probably what you should be doing until you can to age 3 for lancers. Also don’t listen to others that say the English are defensive. They have some very powerful timing attacks that can hit hard.

You couldn’t be more wrong, and I’ll prove it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_VEsS4QQ5o&t=8072s

This is the grand finals of the last AoE4 tournament. English vs. French, two extremely good players, French get’s ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED 9 minutes into the game. Like, it’s not even remotely close, the English player dominated every engagement.

Now can you say that again after watching that match? Hall opener gets destroyed by French/Rus? what a joke.

Now imagine how that would’ve gone if the opponent had unarmored, low-health horsemen instead of Royal Knights.

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Wat…

What kind of timing are you pushing at when you can spend 1500 wood and hit CA. There is no way the enemy can’t destroy 5 rams. at that point unless they are just bad. That is just ridiculous.

It’s insane, right? All the complaints against Mongol “cheesing” is only huge because they don’t leave them alone to get the unstoppable comps. Mongols need to be played super aggressively early.

Typically I play Mongol by moving my TC and camping at the periphery of the enemy base so the TC can deny golds or food. I don’t do the TC right next to theirs, however even that takes way more skill to pull off than to defend it. When TC is moving you aren’t producing villagers. The Mongol TC is the ONLY thing that can trade cost effectively vs. English in the early game.

I’m gonna start cheesing against English as well, I don’t even give a damn. The matchup feels almost unwinnable right now, you’re basically hoping your opponent is dumb and doesn’t realize the fact that his comp is unstoppable.

If there was any other strategy or unit composition that you could use to counter their age 2 push, I would do that. But right now Mongols have literally got nothing going for them against the English.

I actually don’t think that the English are that hard of a MU as Mongols - you can just go market boom + light cavalry vs England as outposts defend really well vs the spearman longbow and if they commit to spearman early their 2nd TC will be late and you pull hard ahead in eco. Horseman archer is fine vs longbow/spear - as you can often pick of reinforcements and deny expansion.
In the third age, mangonels are super scary for the English.

Thr french just completely ignored what the english was doing so yeah he was playing bad.
He saw english just macroing and not taking gold, so feudal all inning, and played too greedy with eco only and expansion after his villager poke opener.

Idk if you notice, but even “super good players” as you might call them have insane consistency issues rn vause they play blindly or haven’t figured a few things out here and there, meaning they make tons of mistakes.

You have insane confirmation bias if you really think the french should’ve won this game.
He played terrible into the map, scouted the right things but reacted 0 to anything the english was forcing.

I think Mongols need some buffs but I am also a big noob so hard to judge. I would like their cavalry to be stronger. Maybe giving them lancers in feudal age like their tech tree/description says would help. I guess they decided that was OP but they feel lacking right now.