Have viper said the word overpowered? Iâve just heard him say theyâre the strongest.
You guys are asking for a high lvl game and you get one, then you ask, what does this prove? If the player he played against is not good enough. Watch Mitoe beating top players on the ladder with dehli, including french. Or watch one of the many tournament games where french was indeed defeated. My issue is you asking for a specific kind of âproofâ then bashing this proof as not proving anything. Dont ask for a type of proof then ignoring it when you get it. Now youâre trying to row around your disingenuity and itâs an ugly look
Iâm agree with you. The point of my post is due to all those users that donât like a single think and they say itâs broken with no analysis. There are a few post above on this forum like one saying to ban water maps lol.
I think that the OP made a good point and that is to not come to the forums and complain about a certain civilization or map because you havenât yet learned how to properly play/counter a specific tactic etc.
That being said yes the French are a bit OP atm but Iâm sure they will get addressed in a future patch. The point still stands though that sometimes we start complaining too quickly because we lost a battle or a match because we didnât play correctly ourselves and we didnât check on replay what us as the player could have done better next time.
Yeah people complain about stuff because they havenât learned how everything works yet. AoE 3 people complain about units being op and the like because they donât understand the counter system
I ask for the OP to show me him beating a high level player since he offered to beat someone randomly on the forums. But yeah, sorry if Iâm being âtoo specificâ by asking for something other than a video where the English player who won specifically says they are extremely overpowered, to demonstrate that they are not overpowered at all.
If I find the viper saying they are OP in general would that have any effect at all or will you keep shifting the goal posts?
Also, whatâs âOP in generalâ? Water maps are a part of the game, if they are âthe strongestâ on all maps and âOP on water mapsâ then they are, be definition, OP in general.
I think its super early still to call an âOP here and OP thereâ in generall.
People still messing around, trying stuff, doing stuff, countering stuff. Look at the TC Mongol rush. Everybody called OP, nerf, imba, yadda yadda, until people start figuring out that the counterplay is the scoutblock. Ezpz.
There is strong Civs - French i.e. - but also they can be countered and outplayed.
Some minor tweaks here and there might be justified, but for now, i honestly dont feel anything is super mega OP. I am somewhat Elo 1300, lost to all Civs, won against all Civs.
Edit : Some Matchups are leaning into one Civs Favour, but unless all Civs are basically identically i think it is almost impossible to get rid of that. Also here, it is not like there was more or less clear âCiv Winsâ in AoE2
The issue with France is that you have massive control. Which was basically what was shown in game after game yesterday.
Yes you can lose with France - but its usually by making a major mistake. Usually throwing knights into too many spears so they all die - and getting them back up is very expensive.
Imo at least people going "I know the French player is going School of Cavalry into Knights and âIâm counter-picking into England/Abbasid with spears/archers to counterâ and⊠not having any noticeable advantage is a major problem.
And I donât think there is some trick to discover to change this. The knight is just far easier to micro than every other unit in feudal. Heâs fast, he has a lot of health and armour, he murders peasants instantly, if damaged he can just move away and relatively quickly be back to full health.
If the French economy was the weakest in the game at this point it might be fine - those Knights would have to get something done to stay in. But it isnât at all. Which is why we saw games where Knights would just attack move into spears - and there would be enough of them to smash through.
Its the inverse with say Delhi. You start in a massive well - and spend the next 15-20 minutes trying to climb out of it and knowing if the game gets deep into Imperial (unlike China) you are screwed vs most factions as well. Why would you bother playing with this issue, when you can just play say France and test if your opponent can match your micro? Yes you can win with Delhi if you are better than your opponent - but you could do so with any faction.
Yes, itâs certain that the current meta hasnât settled at all but that doesnât make it a bad idea to make little tweaks to balance to keep the game diverse while counter strats are being developed and people are learning the game.
I think it makes sense to:
slightly buff china, targeting a simple strategy so players have an easier time learning them
slightly nerf Frances eco building cost reduction so they have a harder time getting their first knight out.
reduce the damage and movespeed of french hulks so it is clear that the counter play is avoiding them while fast castling.
HRE needs changes but idk what. They just feel awkward to play at the moment.
Yeah, i agree in some tweaks here and there eventually.
In regards of french, i would just move the Chivalry Upgrade to castle age.
I personally dont mind the early knights. By the time the first knight arrives you can have 5-8 Spearmen actually already. Yes you will delay your feudal a little since u have to get wood first. But still.
Keep him at bay with the spears, get eco upgrades, Spears and towers. Lots of french players add archers to deal with your spears. You have towers for that.
You should be able to get earlier to castle, and that is the time to strike and bring the fight to him. 1 or 2 Mangonels, Spears and MAA.
Works always good for me against French. Also those greedy frenchies start booming behind it. But suddenly i stand in front of their base and they cant hold it back.
Also some palisades in chokepoints to try and constrict the knights movements early helps.
Dark age spears are definitely the correct answer to French knights. Iâve been rushing with them to interfere with their gold, building up my own archer ball and then going all in with rams. I think castle age can be a bit too greedy in a lot of games but I expect that to change once people get better at judging when itâs safe to make the transition as you seem to have.
In general I think playing defensively against knights is a bit too risky for me unless it is closed map. The potential damage from two knights in your eco is just too high.
I fully agree with you that there is a tendency to immediately yell âOVERPOWERED FIT IT!!â after having lost as a result of a certain strategy.
On the other hand there seems to be a situation where certain civilizations are soft counters to each other; while other civilizations are just âbottom tierâ. This needs to be talked about honestly and fixed.
There was a great series in the tournament yesterday with Tatoh vs Kasva. Donât want to totally spoil it in case people might still want to seek out the games but letâs just say that in one game Abassid Feudal Age performed very well vs. French Castle Age. Chinese also got played in their series - some of the better games of the qualifying rounds. This doesnât necessarily mean French donât need some nerfs. I think most people agree the Chivalry upgrade should be moved to Castle Age and their Feudal Hulks are too strong. But I think the main reason French were picked so much in the tournament is that theyâre strong and straightforward to play - more of a known, sure thing at a time when the game is still pretty new and the meta hasnât been fully explored and discovered yet.
As the French player charges my peasants and kills two of them for free, I smile. âWhat a superb strategyâ, I think to myself.
I watch as my spears hit the cavalry twice, failing to hold them in place and only doing a superficial amount of damage. My adversary then proceeds to retreat, leaving me no chance to deliver the fatal blow and ensuring his cavalry will regenerate health automatically until the next raid. âWell playedâ, I laugh
At this point, I feel my doom approaching. I know that my opponent also has an economic advantage, being able to train villagers faster, having cheaper eco upgrades and buildings. âBrilliantly executed, his innovative and bold strategy is paying off!â, I realize.
Eventually, the French player delivers the fatal blow, with the best cavalry AND best crossbowmen in the game, while also pushing with rams in order to make my spears too risky and ineffective to use. âGGâ, I type with pride. I then jump out of my chair and clap enthusiastically, for I have been defeated by what must be a deity.
I then quit the game and immediately proceed to queue into the next French player. âBring it onâ, I grin, âI canât wait to see what strategy this new opponent has in store!â
