Spammable melee heroes problem

[Cajocu01]

@Urban_Hunter

It’s really hard to keep a thread going when it’s discussing a unit, and you’re trying to discuss skills

Because lacking skill often leads to not understanding a units role or its used, which you keep showing.

@Urban_Hunter

simply said the unit is useless.

And this exagerations. The unit clearly does its role, is it the beat one at it? Not really, but theres always a Best and a worse at everything.

Its hard to discuss with someone that no ill keep exagerating on every argument “no one makes them” “they are useless” then go to use an example (which i did check) and the guy does indeed make use of the unit. Its Just pointless

@Urban_Hunter

The ronin didn’t build much hersirs and still won

So he did build them…… i did agree with you that y he mass hersir loki dynamic he had are def gone in retold. Hersir Just like any other hero is not he main bulk of an army, its a unit with a clear purpose and its used in that purpose.

@Urban_Hunter

You’re a fool,

Not fool, Just confused. You show loki winrates which is not only bad i itself since a patch Just came out and games are scarce. But also because loki doing good or bad has nothing to do with how good hersir are or not this is not voobly loki, have a time to read his bonus.

He was nerfed heavily on his counter damage and his unique tech, the later made him very very strong and had nothing to do with hersir. From my pov it looks like an outcry from someone that wants the god loki was in another game and is detached from Retolds gameplay.

@Urban_Hunter

And you avoided discussing the Aztek “hersirs” even though I persistently suggested it to you.

They are quite New, havent figured most stuff with them. Right now their biggest weakness to me is ranged land myth units. I talked to you about it on another topic, but you jump into pointless dumb. Exagerations like “Poseidon players dont make centaur” and “i havent seen a centaur raid in 6 months” so it becomes meaningless to me to discuss it further with you since to me it looks you are out of touch with the game or at least play with an entre different enviroment than the one i play at and that i see in tournaments of higher elo players.

And when ever i offer to show you my pov you run away, you Just wanna be right but are not willing to show it.

@Skadidesu

And the other point is do Hersir have to be an important units? Why is it wrong if they are mostly just being used in Classical Age before Godi become available? You could also complain about Jarls making Raiding Cavalry useless in Heroic Age.

Agreed, Godi whole purpose whas to cover the short coming hersir had. Issues vs flying units, issues vs ranged myth units, and they do Just that, and against units with high pierce damage or land melee units that are fast hersir are still a still a better choice.

[WolfishICE]

@Skadidesu

And the other point is do Hersir have to be an important units? Why is it wrong if they are mostly just being used in Classical Age before Godi become available? You could also complain about Jarls making Raiding Cavalry useless in Heroic Age.

This is also an example of very poor design. Instead of adding a “stable” and a stupid hirdman whose construction speed is the same as a jarl’s, they should have fixed what was already done poorly.
What do you think about this:

@Cajocu01

Because lacking skill often leads to not understanding a units role or its used, which you keep showing.

Show me where I demonstrated a lack of understanding of the unit role?

@Cajocu01

And this exagerations. The unit clearly does its role, is it the beat one at it? Not really, but theres always a Best and a worse at everything.

Its hard to discuss with someone that no ill keep exagerating on every argument “no one makes them” “they are useless” then go to use an example (which i did check) and the guy does indeed make use of the unit. Its Just pointless

What did you check?

@Cajocu01

So he did build them…… i did agree with you that y he mass hersir loki dynamic he had are def gone in retold. Hersir Just like any other hero is not he main bulk of an army, its a unit with a clear purpose and its used in that purpose.

Hersir is not a pioneer and not even an onimushi

@Cajocu01

detached from Retolds gameplay.

I don’t want a Loki from another game. I want to use the mechanics that are in the game right now, just like I use the priest mechanics in Egypt.

@Cajocu01

They are quite New, havent figured most stuff with them. Right now their biggest weakness to me is ranged land myth units. I talked to you about it on another topic, but you jump into pointless dumb. Exagerations like “Poseidon players dont make centaur” and “i havent seen a centaur raid in 6 months” so it becomes meaningless to me to discuss it further with you since to me it looks you are out of touch with the game or at least play with an entre different enviroment than the one i play at and that i see in tournaments of higher elo players.

And when ever i offer to show you my pov you run away, you Just wanna be right but are not willing to show it.

Apparently we watch different tournaments, it’s surprising how popular this game is.

@Cajocu01

Agreed, Godi whole purpose whas to cover the short coming hersir had. Issues vs flying units, issues vs ranged myth units, and they do Just that, and against units with high pierce damage or land melee units that are fast hersir are still a still a better choice.

You yourself said that the Hersirs are weak against centaurs. They’re supposedly fast, after all. Decide already what these hersirs are needed for.

[Cajocu01]

@Urban_Hunter

Decide already what these hersirs are needed for.

Are centaur melee or did you went past that comment?

@Urban_Hunter

Apparently we watch different tournaments, it’s surprising how popular this game is.

Dunno what popularity has to do with it, but sure i guess.

@Urban_Hunter

Hersir is not a pioneer and not even an onimushi

Not a priest nor warrior priest

@Urban_Hunter

What did you check?

The challenge guy you mention and the game you mention. I have also played vs ronin myself, and i know he does use hersir and he does make them.

@Urban_Hunter

Show me where I demonstrated a lack of understanding of the unit role?

Sure, here:

@Urban_Hunter

Norse players don’t build them AT ALL

@Urban_Hunter

according to the game’s design, only anti-infantry troops should defeat the Hersir 1v1.

@Urban_Hunter

When was the last time you played against Norse? How many Hersirs were there?

@Urban_Hunter

First of all, hersis aren’t anti-MU. They’re Egyptian obelisks

@Urban_Hunter

They generate favor. That’s their primary function

@Urban_Hunter

The only ones who build heroes 100% of the time are the Greeks.

@Urban_Hunter

The point is that no one is building Hersers even to fight MU

@Urban_Hunter

most players simply play without hersirs.

@Urban_Hunter

watch tournaments on YouTube and haven’t seen Norse build Hersirs

Its all the same exageration thats very easy to prove false, yet you keep dodging and repeating, Pandora Box tourney all loki matches had hersir, same for thor, same for freyr, same for odin. The unit gets made. You saying otherwise its very weird to me at least. It for sure isnt massed, people dont go about 20 hersir, but theres a group of heroes in army groups, at least ones of good players.

The offer is always there, for you to learn about it, yet you will keep refusing it.

[WolfishICE]

@Cajocu01

Are centaur melee or did you went past that comment?

OMG, of course not. To kill EVERYONE regular MU would only need Godies.

@Cajocu01

Not a priest nor warrior priest

It’s very funny… but it has additional functions. Generate more favor, generate Loki spam, generate favor passively. I didn’t make this up, as you’re trying to prove here.

@Cajocu01

The challenge guy you mention and the game you mention. I have also played vs ronin myself, and i know he does use hersir and he does make them.

Yes, in that battle he created 25 hersirs, 300 housecarls, and 150 jarls. You call that using?

@Cajocu01

The offer is always there, for you to learn about it, yet you will keep refusing it.

You only suggested I repel centaurs. Just because you have a higher APM doesn’t mean the Hersir is useful.

[Cajocu01]

@Urban_Hunter

You call that using?

Yea… you dont need hersir to be the main bulk of your army. Same way you dont make 25 catapults, its dumb to expect all units to be made the same amount in a game imo. Each unit has a role and the amount you make depends on how many you need at a time to fulfill that role. Some you need more off some less off.

Like i have stated several times. Loki mass hersir is not a thing on retold, on that we agree, yet your flawed exageration that hersir have no role or never get made is just wrong as you yourself provee with your comment.

@Urban_Hunter

You only suggested I repel centaurs. Just because you have a higher APM doesn’t mean the Hersir is useful.

Not really, i hace offered this in all out debate tópics and you Will keep running away from it. Apm is needed for certain things, and it adds ups to some units / gods skill ceilings. But me showing you the examples in a game is not a matter of “i win im right” or “you beat me you are right” is you being capable of seeing the other side, which you are keen on running away from.

[WolfishICE]

@Cajocu01

Loki mass hersir is not a thing on retold

I’m trying to explain that in a serious fight, when your opponent is equal, every Hersir you build increases your chances of losing. I’m also trying to explain that it already consumes as much population as a Jarl, costs more than a Huskarl, and is equal in strength to a Berserker. Perhaps he tanks arrows slightly better. The unit has been nerfed in three areas. Insane. It is impossible to realize his role as a favor generator. For some reason, you decided for me that I want to make the entire front line out of Hersirs. I want to build at least 5 and not lose because of it.

@Cajocu01

other side, which you are keen on running away from.

I played against 1500 Elo dudes, and I didn’t see anything new. 60 APM means you expand your economy faster. That’s all.

[Cajocu01]

@Urban_Hunter

For some reason, you decided for me that I want to make the entire front line out of Hersirs

Well you are the only one saying that making 25 hersir in a game is not using the unit. Its your example not mine. You make it sound as if you were expecting the same amount of hersir done as throwing axemen, jarls or some other important main line norse army comp unit.

@Urban_Hunter

I played against 1500 Elo dudes, and I didn’t see anything new. 60 APM means you expand your economy faster. That’s all

You seem quite fixated on both running away and on apm for some reason, fair either way, its your decisión. Also dunno why that elo matters but sure i guess, its a nice way to avoid.

@Urban_Hunter

every Hersir you build increases your chances of losing

This for example, such exagerations.

@Urban_Hunter

I’m also trying to explain that it already consumes as much population as a Jarl

So? Again you arent making a full army of them, its not that deep or relevant, thats the case for all heroes, they arent pop efficient as human units (except atty ofc, those are not cost effective) . They dont have to be the most pop efficient unit for norse, they are made in the amount needed to adress their role.

[TuxedoToad]

The thing is Hesirs are never alone.They always attack in hordes

[WolfishICE]

@Cajocu01

Well you are the only one saying that making 25 hersir in a game is not using the unit. Its your example not mine. You make it sound as if you were expecting the same amount of hersir done as throwing axemen, jarls or some other important main line norse army comp unit.

I expected 25% from the army. But I get 8% at best, and most often 0%.

@Cajocu01

You seem quite fixated on both running away and on apm for some reason, fair either way, its your decisión. Also dunno why that elo matters but sure i guess, its a nice way to avoid.

I’ve seen both a rush of kuafu from Nuwa and a fast third TC in the Classical from Demeter. What I haven’t really seen is the use of centaurs. APM is everything. Centaurs’ job is to degrade the economy. If you have less APM than the enemy, centaurs won’t work.

@Cajocu01

This for example, such exagerations.

@Urban_Hunter

consumes as much population as a Jarl, costs more than a Huskarl, and is equal in strength to a Berserker.

This is not an exaggeration

@Cajocu01

So? Again you arent making a full army of them, its not that deep or relevant, thats the case for all heroes, they arent pop efficient as human units (except atty ofc, those are not cost effective) . They dont have to be the most pop efficient unit for norse, they are made in the amount needed to adress their role.

Thor has a technology that increases favor from fighting Hersirs. Is there any way I can take advantage of it if my opponent doesn’t use MU at all?

---

Another Loki “Challenger” who plays better than me. Apparently they get paid for this.

In 36 minutes he built 2 Hersirs and 0 Godi, despite being attacked by 7 boars, 2 hydras and 3 colossuses.

---

[Cajocu01]

@Urban_Hunter

Another Loki “Challenger” who plays better than me. Apparently they get paid for this.

Well you do keep hiding any way to actually check the replays and turn it into a treasure find to seek them out. And well a name “0 hersir loki” does give the vibe of it being done on purpose no?

@Urban_Hunter

In 36 minutes he built 2 Hersirs and 0 Godi, despite being attacked by 7 boars, 2 hydras and 3 colossuses.

I mean sure i can take your word for it, but you can just link the match to be you know… transparent….

@Urban_Hunter

@Cajocu01

This for example, such exagerations.

@Urban_Hunter

consumes as much population as a Jarl, costs more than a Huskarl, and is equal in strength to a Berserker.

This is not an exaggeration

Thats not what i quoted….

@Urban_Hunter

I’ve seen both a rush of kuafu from Nuwa and a fast third TC in the Classical from Demeter. What I haven’t really seen is the use of centaurs. APM is everything. Centaurs’ job is to degrade the economy. If you have less APM than the enemy, centaurs won’t work.

But you say you havent seen good players use them either, so dunno how that fits the whole apm restriction.

@Urban_Hunter

Thor has a technology that increases favor from fighting Hersirs. Is there any way I can take advantage of it if my opponent doesn’t use MU at all?

Well some earlier time on retold people turtled in base with thor, massed hersir and spammed gold mine, never had to leave their base and just waited until they were all set. This ofc was not really an engaging dynamic so it was nerfed.

Thor players still make hersir and they get a decentish favor gain which helps buy their time in hard math ups, but its a default “i can stay in my base for as long as i want” dynamic. Dunno if you want that to come back.

@Urban_Hunter

I expected 25% from the army. But I get 8% at best, and most often 0%.

Dunno if other heroes get that representation tbh. 25% of a eggy army being priest exit almost only during the heroic siege push, no where else may that be a thing. Same with full pioneers, only early on are they that repesentative, which so are hersir ofc, since its the earliest unit you have access to. Specially if a game reaches late game, all the units that die and are remade are the ones that make the bulk of the army, not the niche ones that counter specific units.

25% of japans army being heroes is also not really a thing, except for vindicare, who sometimes stops making vills and spams miko to heal, but not the japan army heroes you compare hersir to.

A unit thats good vs 1 thing becomes less releant wif that thing isnt made. Same way hirdman would suck if there stopped being cav. Or fire archers if they brought cav instead of infantry, etc etc.

You will see those be made in larger quantities when needed since its easy to mass infantry or cav, its less easy to mass myth units, and heroes arent more efficient vs human units, if they were you would just make them into anything, which kidna defeats the point of hving other units.

[WolfishICE]

@Cajocu01

Thats not what i quoted….

Yes, I responded to your complaint in the same post you quoted from. Or is pitting Kopeytsy against samurai a good idea? What don’t you understand?

@Cajocu01

But you say you havent seen good players use them either, so dunno how that fits the whole apm restriction.

Because centaurs don’t weave. They only make inhabitants of the idle. That’s why all Poseidons use only hippei to kill. But you’re right, I’ve gotten off topic.

@Cajocu01

Well some earlier time on retold people turtled in base with thor, massed hersir and spammed gold mine, never had to leave their base and just waited until they were all set. This ofc was not really an engaging dynamic so it was nerfed.

Thor players still make hersir and they get a decentish favor gain which helps buy their time in hard math ups, but its a default “i can stay in my base for as long as i want” dynamic. Dunno if you want that to come back.

Weakened what exactly? To generate favor, you need to fight.

@Cajocu01

You will see those be made in larger quantities when needed since its easy to mass infantry or cav, its less easy to mass myth units, and heroes arent more efficient vs human units, if they were you would just make them into anything, which kidna defeats the point of hving other units.

Definitely. Simply tying a mechanic to a unit that can’t be built because the enemy isn’t building MU is very strange. Norse don’t control favor generation. That is, it is the enemy who decides whether to give you more favor or not. So, no mass MU or GP recasts for Norse.

@Cajocu01

I mean sure i can take your word for it, but you can just link the match to be you know… transparent….

陪我在北极委屈你辣？, ngsiuhongng, ckdgml5110 vs N3-HNTR, KimSeo, Gunnar - Alfheim -...

Apparently he’s challenged to lose. I don’t know how you’ll launch the replay; a patch just came out. The replay won’t load for me.

[Cajocu01]

@Urban_Hunter

Weakened what exactly?

The passive favor gain, the unique tech to be more precise

@Urban_Hunter

To generate favor, you need to fight.

Not with what im saying.

@Urban_Hunter

Definitely. Simply tying a mechanic to a unit that can’t be built because the enemy isn’t building MU is very strange.

You can still have a couple out, its never being the main bulk of your army. Its not strange at all imo. Thats how all counter unit work, great if they can counter their target, not good if theres nothing to counter, its not really a new concept being revealed.

@Urban_Hunter

That is, it is the enemy who decides whether to give you more favor or not. So, no mass MU or GP recasts for Norse.

As if thats what happened, poor norse cant have favor income cause opponent didnt make myth units. Specially on tgs, norse isnt scrapping by for favor most of the game, their early income is less, due to how it works.

@Urban_Hunter

Apparently he’s challenged to lose

You are the one to be making the argument that not making hersir is good. Yet your example is of you beating someone that didnt make any hersir into myth units….. And lost. Dunno if your examples shows what you think it does.

[WolfishICE]

@Cajocu01

The passive favor gain, the unique tech to be more precise

But no one nerfed the unit. It’s already not a counter to anyone, it’s expensive and eats up 3 pop. I don’t see the point in making it even weaker. I remember problems with players only using Onna-musha, and they countered the entire enemy army, even archers. There’s no point in doing the same thing. I’m saying that building a Hersir shouldn’t be a disaster like building egyptian spearmen against hoplites. That’s all. Thor makes problems with Hersirs, so Loki and Odin won’t have them at all. So should we balance the game like this?

@Cajocu01

Not with what im saying.

Passive generation doesn’t really interest me. But I get where you’re going with this. You could just build 50 Hersirs and get 30/min generation. Well, you can do that right now. I’ve even seen strategies like that a couple of times. These guys only build Great Halls and Hill Forts. Thor and Freyr did that. And both played poorly, constantly asking for help in 1v1 combat. Even if you buff the Hersirs, they’ll still be no help against Samurai and Hippeus. So I don’t see any problem.

@Cajocu01

You can still have a couple out, its never being the main bulk of your army. Its not strange at all imo. Thats how all counter unit work, great if they can counter their target, not good if theres nothing to counter, its not really a new concept being revealed.

I suggest Li Jing Golden Pagoda only affect MUs. He’s a hero, after all.

@Cajocu01

As if thats what happened, poor norse cant have favor income cause opponent didnt make myth units. Specially on tgs, norse isnt scrapping by for favor most of the game, their early income is less, due to how it works.

The only time I’ve seen Norse GP recasts was with Wander Age or game take 50 min. All other pantheons don’t have this problem. Especially Isis, who can build Anubites instead of spearmen. Even for Set, if you take the Anubis upgrade and build 4 monuments, you will overtake any Norse. The Greeks spam their GPs on cooldown, and they don’t have cheap GPs. It’s more difficult for Atlantis and Japan. It requires skill, but if you want it, you’ll get it. China gets favor simply for being there. And only Norse receives the favor that other players have allowed them. You might say it’s a weakness of civilization, since they’re not mirror civs. I don’t mind, but I’d prefer that this weakness depend on me, not my opponent.

@Cajocu01

You are the one to be making the argument that not making hersir is good. Yet your example is of you beating someone that didnt make any hersir into myth units….. And lost. Dunno if your examples shows what you think it does.

He was lost because of his friend Set, who started building elephants.

[Cajocu01]

@Urban_Hunter

But no one nerfed the unit. It’s already not a counter to anyone,

We were talking about the thor favor dynamic…..

@Urban_Hunter

I don’t see the point in making it even weaker.

well im not saying to nerf hersir….. dunno what are you jumping onto.

@Urban_Hunter

It’s already not a counter to anyone

Thats false, they still counter myth units, they do struggle against some of them. But most heroes do

@Urban_Hunter

I remember problems with players only using Onna-musha, and they countered the entire enemy army, even archers.

Anything goes when your opponent is bad enough, theres games of people winning with manticores only and so on. That said, amas early issues where around bushido, which got adressed as all her units could be heavy or champion in classic age frequently.

@Urban_Hunter

That’s all. Thor makes problems with Hersirs, so Loki and Odin won’t have them at all. So should we balance the game like this?

Well as you can clearly in the image and from whats been told to you, they nerfed thor´s unique tech, to impact thor itself. Are you even following what its said? Seems you just jump from goalpost to goalpost.

@Urban_Hunter

I’m saying that building a Hersir shouldn’t be a disaster like building egyptian spearmen against hoplites

Well you are making a anti myth unit vs human units. Same way building priest into toxotes is not gonna end well for you. Its hwo the whole game goes, not just poor hersir.

@Urban_Hunter

Passive generation doesn’t really interest me

But you said thats their main function, so i adressed it you should stick to one dynamic.

@Urban_Hunter

Even if you buff the Hersirs, they’ll still be no help against Samurai and Hippeus. So I don’t see any problem.

"The unit i dont understand its role wont cause an issue if they buff it to my criteria with no arguments behind it” Well anything goes when you dismiss everything against it.

@Urban_Hunter

I suggest Li Jing Golden Pagoda only affect MUs. He’s a hero, after all.

They did nerf china heroes exactly beacuse they were too good vs human units. All 3 of them, which you are free to check. So it seems you are finally grasping the dynamic. They could for sure do that, thou they would kinda need to streamline it. all hero abilities (except sage and shennong´s which are a specific anti myth unit dynamic) work on regular units currently, so you are once again asking for something that goes agaist the norm just like the hersir dynamic.

Belle, polyphemus, nezha, jhon wick, etc all work on human units

@Urban_Hunter

He was lost because of his friend Set, who started building elephants.

Ahh just the save he needed to excuse the dynamic, well i guess what goes goes.

[WolfishICE]

@Cajocu01

We were talking about the thor favor dynamic…..

@Cajocu01

well im not saying to nerf hersir….. dunno what are you jumping onto.

@Cajocu01

Thats false, they still counter myth units, they do struggle against some of them. But most heroes do

Oh, I get it. We’re having a debate here, not a discussion. Okay.

@Cajocu01

That was never the case, at least vs competent players. This is just another exageration.

Apparently, the opinion of “competent players” was not asked.

@Cajocu01

Anything goes when your opponent is bad enough, theres games of people winning with manticores only and so on. That said, amas early issues where around bushido, which got adressed as all her units could be heavy or champion in classic age frequently.

You could build them instead of the front line and they had a great trade.

@Cajocu01

Well as you can clearly in the image and from whats been told to you, they nerfed thor´s unique tech, to impact thor itself. Are you even following what its said? Seems you just jump from goalpost to goalpost.

You yourself said that you can’t strengthen the Hersirs because then Thor will sit at the base and spam the gold mines.

@Cajocu01

Well you are making a anti myth unit vs human units. Same way building priest into toxotes is not gonna end well for you. Its hwo the whole game goes, not just poor hersir.

A priest’s job is to heal, not fight. And yes, I’ll spam priests so they tank damage from toxotes and heal each other and slingers. Only the poor hersir is useless.

@Cajocu01

But you said thats their main function, so i adressed it you should stick to one dynamic.

I said that they generate more favor in combat than any other unit. I even showed you a screenshot from the wiki. If it’s too hard to read, just say so, and I can make a larger version.

@Cajocu01

"The unit i dont understand its role wont cause an issue if they buff it to my criteria with no arguments behind it” Well anything goes when you dismiss everything against it.

I’ve only heard two arguments over several days of conversation. That they’ll be building Hersirs instead of the front line units, which is stupid because they consume a lot of population? expensive, and their multipliers only work against MU. And the second argument is that Thor will then have to play Tower Defense every game, which is also pointless. If he wants, he can do it right now and get 30/min passive favor generation.
Learn how to read and then you will begin to understand units.

@Cajocu01

They did nerf china heroes exactly beacuse they were too good vs human units. All 3 of them, which you are free to check. So it seems you are finally grasping the dynamic. They could for sure do that, thou they would kinda need to streamline it. all hero abilities (except sage and shennong´s which are a specific anti myth unit dynamic) work on regular units currently, so you are once again asking for something that goes agaist the norm just like the hersir dynamic.

Belle, polyphemus, nezha, jhon wick, etc all work on human units

Why do they work and the hersirs don’t?

@Cajocu01

Ahh just the save he needed to excuse the dynamic, well i guess what goes goes.

OH! Do you agree that playing with Elephants is a bad idea?
If you want, here are some other examples, less honest ones. Here, Loki won without the Hersirs.

Wumbo, N3-HNTR, Crixuss vs Tutti Frutti♥, Mt Dangerous, AG - Alfheim - aomstats

And here was Loki, who built hersirs and lost. A lot of hersirs. Big mistake.

The_kid, N3-HNTR, Macho King vs 竹马, cristiandariovd, Adc99 - Tundra - aomstats

Choose any of the 3. But I recommend the first one.
You can also watch this game where Loki outplayed me as the last noob but still lost because he built hersirs.

Savannah

Sup Team
27:11
5 hours ago
30.04.2026, 23:57
Patch 19.11687
ID: 36713529

---

Here’s more proof for you. 3 pop vs. 2 pop, same price.

But they have a higher multiplier against MU, bronze shields from the arsenal, lower population cost, more dps, and no counter units. And all this out of the box. Where is the frontline made up of only priests?

[Cajocu01]

@Urban_Hunter

Apparently, the opinion of “competent players” was not asked.

You do seem hesitant to read what is said. It literally adressed amaterasu bushido gain and its bonus with a smaller stat ajustment better reflected to its cost. And the developer notes that go with it. The hero unit never did better than Samurai nor do they mention it.

Even following your narrative it would be: hero unit does well into human units and proceeeds to be nerfed. You are making the counter argument to your hersir outcry.

@Urban_Hunter

Oh, I get it. We’re having a debate here, not a discussion. Okay.

Well you do shift from one idea to another when the matter one falls short:

Hersir were in fact made, even on the games you linked

The passive favor into mass hersir dynamic did happened for thor and was nerfed

Other heroes that at any point in the game did better than human untis or did too well into human units got nerfed

@Urban_Hunter

You yourself said that you can’t strengthen the Hersirs because then Thor will sit at the base and spam the gold mines.

Hersir stats have nothing to do with the favor gain thou. Please stop making stuff up. It Just looks bad. I said the passive favor gen was a thing for thor with its upgrade.

@Urban_Hunter

Learn how to read and then you will begin to understand units.

I mean if thats all you got get thats it, theres not getting you out of that cry dynamic.

@Urban_Hunter

Where is the frontline made up of only priests?

Warrior priest are actually more common as a frontline than hersir since they dont have a infantry tag, and since a aztecs dont have classic age cav its a good unit into Hard infantry counters, but this will go past you, Just like all the other things. Should have stopped replying earlier, thats on me, you goalshifted enough.

@Urban_Hunter

Why do they work and the hersirs don’t?

Well they are a one off at a time unit. So your odd métric of hersir count equivalent cant apply, so you are forced to see that they are made since thats all you actually have going for yourself it seems. 25 hersir is not enough shm.

@Urban_Hunter

Choose any of the 3. But I recommend the first one.

Yea, lets take how to play loki from lower elo players and not from the Best ones. Wow this has been a waste of time.

@Urban_Hunter

And yes, I’ll spam priests so they tank damage from toxotes

Well that explains several things, the confidence, the logic on hersir, theres better options than doing this juts fyi (like make units that actually deal with them), but you do you.

@Urban_Hunter

The only time I’ve seen Norse GP recasts was with Wander Age or game take 50 min.

Wow, from exageration to exageration… sure…. Second frost, flaming weapons, walking Woods its all on Wonder age. For sure.

@Urban_Hunter

OH! Do you agree that playing with Elephants is a bad idea?

Hard to form an opinion blindly. Theres much that could be going on:
If the opponent is full anti cav and the guys making elephants its boviously bad. If he went horus and is spamming elephants its bad. If thoth and champion and opponent is mostly on generalist/archers or pushing with an ally, elephants are a good unit imo depending on how you accompany them.

@Urban_Hunter

The only time I’ve seen Norse GP recasts was with Wander Age or game take 50 min. All other pantheons don’t have this problem. Especially Isis, who can build Anubites instead of spearmen. Even for Set, if you take the Anubis upgrade and build 4 monuments, you will overtake any Norse. The Greeks spam their GPs on cooldown, and they don’t have cheap GPs. It’s more difficult for Atlantis and Japan.

Wow theres so many exagerations and missunderstanding through out that i cant believe i missed all this.

You say japan and atty are lacking favor income and are behind eggy??? (please take your time and do the same investment of 4 eggy monuments into oracles and see the favor income, add leto upgradee if you wanna) also their god powers are simply Cheaper on average and are recasted a lot more (atty god powers) ….. Wow simply wow., i guess we wont meet eye to eye, we seem to play different games and you since you will run away at any attempt to showcase your view or see others. Thats it.

[WolfishICE]

@Cajocu01

You do seem hesitant to read what is said. It literally adressed amaterasu bushido gain and its bonus with a smaller stat ajustment better reflected to its cost. And the developer notes that go with it. The hero unit never did better than Samurai nor do they mention it.

Even following your narrative it would be: hero unit does well into human units and proceeeds to be nerfed. You are making the counter argument to your hersir outcry.

He was better than the samurai because he cost less population and was good at killing archers. That’s why his damage and piercing armor were nerfed. It’s written there.

@Cajocu01

Hersir stats have nothing to do with the favor gain thou. Please stop making stuff up. It Just looks bad. I said the passive favor gen was a thing for thor with its upgrade.

I think you don’t get it. Hersir generates more favor when dealing damage than any other unit in the game.

@Cajocu01

I mean if thats all you got get thats it, theres not getting you out of that cry dynamic.

I’m not crying, I’m trying to explain to a stubborn idiot how the Norse favor generation system works.

@Cajocu01

Warrior priest are actually more common as a frontline than hersir since they dont have a infantry tag, and since a aztecs dont have classic age cav its a good unit into Hard infantry counters, but this will go past you, Just like all the other things. Should have stopped replying earlier, thats on me, you goalshifted enough.

Give me at least one example where I jumped from goal to goal?

@Cajocu01

Wow, from exageration to exageration… sure…. Second frost, flaming weapons, walking Woods its all on Wonder age. For sure.

Yes, that’s right. To get 250 favor for the fire weapon recast, you need to save up and not waste it for up to 30 minutes of play.

@Cajocu01

Wow theres so many exagerations and missunderstanding through out that i cant believe i missed all this.

You say japan and atty are lacking favor income and are behind eggy??? (please take your time and do the same investment of 4 eggy monuments into oracles and see the favor income, add leto upgradee if you wanna) also their god powers are simply Cheaper on average and are recasted a lot more (atty god powers) ….. Wow simply wow., i guess we wont meet eye to eye, we seem to play different games and you since you will run away at any attempt to showcase your view or see others. Thats it.

I was talking about generating favor, and you continue to fill in for me things I didn’t say.
It’s really strange that every time we try to talk, you first resort to personal attacks, and then start throwing a tantrum. I tried to keep the conversation as gentle and approachable as possible from the start so you wouldn’t get anxious, but again, nothing worked. Alas.

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We already have two abilities that are unclear in how they should be used. Are they meant to counter MU even better? Hersirs don’t need that—they’re already handling them just fine. I think that’s a gap.

[WolfishICE]

I agree, but you’re faced with a choice. Build 5 Hersir or 5 Jarls; their population costs are the same. But their combat effectiveness is very different. Odin would build Jarls because their cavalry generates more favor, so they can get by without the Hersir. But what Loki, Thor, and Freyr should do is unclear.

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Since my position has caused some misunderstanding, I’d like to clarify everything in one calm and uncluttered post.
My initial position was that the Hersir is currently only good for countering myth units, like all other spammable heroes in the game. However, since it has a second function, namely economics, it means that the implementation of certain parts of Norse’s economy will depend on the opponent’s army composition, not on player decisions. Norse has no other way to influence favor generation in the game, meaning it will be the same in every match unless the opponent builds myth units.
This also affects unique god upgrades like Thor’s Hammer of Thunder and Vidar’s Avenging Spirit, which become less useful since myth units can’t defeat Hersir anyway, while upgrades like Freya’s Sessrumnir and Aegir’s Nine Waves become less valuable. It also affects Loki’s ability to influence MU spam.
Thank you all for your attention.

[ChippyLaMonk]

“Counter pick unit is weaker than a generalist unit in a situation where it isn’t hard countering anything.”

yeah duh. Unit design 101

[WolfishICE]

I agree, but that’s not what I said.
My point is that tying an economic function to a situational unit creates a design issue. It means Norse favor generation is partially dependent on the opponent’s choices, rather than the player’s own decisions.
This also reduces the value of several god bonuses, since they rely on myth unit interactions that Hersir already suppresses.

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