Spearmen in Dark Age

Will it be too powerful?

Not powerful at all. But no cavalry in dark age, whats the purpose?

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Training at age up phase to prevent scout rush.

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The purpose would be being able to defend from scouts in dark age. That would lead to a huge change in meta I think. One major drawback of going fc would be nullified this way. So people simply wouldn’t open scouts anymore I guess.

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I don’t like. Scouts are already easy to deal with… You can up Feudal with 21 vils and still have time to train a couple of spears before scouts arrive your base. With that and short walls you should be fine against scouts

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F

lots of misunderstanding in this post.

Firstly, there has to be a purpose. Spearmen serve no purpose in dark age. Spearmen are a counter unit, and in Dark Age there is nothing to counter.

Secondly, and more importantly, this game is finely balanced. Dark age aggression is both costly and, potentially, very rewarding (1 vill killed early is worth more than 1 vill killed at 25 min mark).

Militias cost 60f 20g, and you don’t accidentally start with 100g. 100g is enough to make Loom, and with a 10g additional by long mining, make the classic 3-militia drush (pre-Mill or not). Introduce spears into the equation, and Militias become obsolete, because they need less food to be trained, and especially, less gold (MAA generally wants a mining camp made in Dark Age which is a 100w investment which spearmen wouldn’t require. This 100w into Mining camp early is a huge investment and sets up your Feudal age a lot because you can’t afford the 2nd Lumber Camp since you need an Archery Range).

Spearmen are about as strong as Militia in dark age (less firerate and attack, but more HP and speed). The bottom line is that Spearmen in Dark Age would allow you to perform a 3-4 Spearman rush which would be equally effective to Militia rush, while not requiring as much food and especially not requiring a Mining Camp for potential MAA upgrade later.

Overall, I see only disadvantages with this proposal, and no advantages.

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Why are we assuming you get feudal age spears :face_with_monocle:

Do camel scouts not exist?

This.

You guys also aren’t thinking about the context of the unit. The approach as always is "he is wrong, let me point out why "

Yet we have camel scouts on a civ where it works… if there were a Tibetan civ (example) that could train DA spears and the civ has a bonus towards spears(and or a depreciating bonus per age) that incentives them, it would be both feasible balancewise and possibly interesting

Shock and horror, what you can achieve if you put some thought into it. Instead of assuming someone is just wrong for the sake of it

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spearmen are a counter unit, if you made a Militia-like unit (main unit), I could endorse it more. Like I said, there is nothing to counter in Dark Age.

Camel Scout is a very “pushed” bonus, I believe it like 4 shots a Scout, and gives Gurjaras a not small advantage in early Feudal in pure military terms. Gurjaras are beatable but this doesn’t mean that the Camel Scout “works”.

To give an example, imagine a civ that started with 2 Scouts. You could snipe vills early, but one could argue, early Scouts can be countered by quickwalls or early Loom also. Would a 2 starting Scouts civ work? Probably, because people are great at adapting, but this doesn’t mean it would be “good design”.

might as well give bonuses to Militia-line, which is an ALREADY EXISTING Dark Age unit. Oh wait, that’s Goths, Malians, Celts etc.

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Well if one player goes fast feudal and the other player intends to skip feudal there is something to counter in dark age. If you had spears in feudal and the opponent goes scouts you could just go straight fc without walls into xbows. This probably would lead to people only play maa archers.

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DA spearmen is a cool potential civ bonus. You could combine it with “spear line upgrades available one age earlier”.

Or did the OP mean to suggest all civs should get DA spears?

idk it seems too easy for a fc build, just wall and make a few spears if the opponent makes scouts. The spears can be used to defend against a scrush and/or a tower followup or to support the expansion after the castle age is reached.
Ofc you can argue this doesn’t helps against maa/archer openings, but against these you probably can just buy enough time to rush up a tower once you are in feudal.
I’m not so sure if this is really such a great idea.

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People saying there’s nothing to counter in dark age - What if you’re against Mongols 18 pop scouts? By the time you’re up to Feudal, you already have 3x enemy scouts in your base, assuming you haven’t walled super early. And it wouldn’t “break the game” to allow it, since spears without upgrades cannot do any eco damage. Not even as strong as dark age militia in that regard.

How weak can it be ? deals 1 damage to villagers, right ?

If you never want to see scouts in feudal. As if there isn’t an extreme feudal archer meta already.

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  1. you are suggesting a giant game change to handle a very specific scenario
  2. you know you are against Mongols and you cant make small walls? You just said you know that mongols can go up and send scouts quickly, so prepare or lose the game.
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Small walls disrupt villager efficiency and it’s awkward having to keep deleting palisades and rebuilding them if you want to add new villagers to a walled resource.

This would delay your passage to Age II. The advantage would be to be able to produce some during the transition. To attack or protect an FC. On a single civ, I like the idea. Generalized to all civs, it would just kill the meta for toxic gameplay : wall T rash fast castle

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I think this will have a utility on hybrid maps where you can delay feudal to build more Fishing ship only to use spears to protect yourself from a scout rush though this could be hard countered by archers. Also adding a spear to militia and M@A builds could make it much more difficult to clear up with scouts. Also this would be very useful on land madness. Also the spear could for laming on Socotra thanks to its cheaper cost and faster movement speed.

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to counter fast scout rush or fast castle knights