SPIES THREAD

[Kingfisher1787]

@WolfishICE

From the very first post in every thread, you start with a strawman and goalshifting.

I have been fairly consistent that I hold the opinion that Spies are insufficiently good at countering mercs. My opinion on what to do about that, and what issues could occur if various other changes were made have shifted. I intake new info, read others’ posts, and change my opinions based on reexamination. If I was objectively incorrect, or feel I was only partially right in retrospect, I will shift my opinion or rephrase. That’s called being an adult.

@WolfishICE

Then you move on to personal attacks,

@WolfishICE

You’re a terrible dialogue partner. I’m surprised you have friends.

I pointed out you played poorly, you are surprised I have friends. Projection much? Also…

@WolfishICE

You’re right. The “socialism experts” truly disagree with me.

I don’t know what that means and I’m not sure you do either lol. What do Marxist economics have to do with any of this other than being a personal attack? I guess according to you I’m a commie with no friends lol.

@WolfishICE

But let’s examine this latest piece of nonsense you’ve written.
The spy does indeed have more HP.

• Spy 150
• Skirmisher 120
• Halberdier 200

Halbs have the Heavy Infantry Tag, meaning their main counter gets a 2-3x vs them even when they get a 50% RR in cover mode. Spies don’t have the HI tag anymore, so their CM is far more powerful. They also reach 60% RR due to their base RR.

@Kingfisher1787

only the higher hp matters for cav specifically, they kill them slower than they normally kill skirms. If you consider the DPS per pop of a Hussar vs a Skirm and a Skirm vs a Musket you see a big difference.

Pop and RoF adjusted a Hussar does 30 damage to a skirm (in age 2 with no upgrades) every 3 seconds. A hussar therefore has a pop and RoF adjusted kill in 12 seconds on an unupgraded skirm.

A skirm does 30 damage to a musket every 3 seconds. Cost wise this is slightly worse but you also have range which is a big deal and with CIR it goes to 45 damage. A skirm without CIR has a kill on a musket in 15 seconds.

The Hussar would take down a Spy in 1 additional hit (15 seconds using the Pop and RoF adjusted formula), but Agents adds 75hp which would increase this by another 3 hits (~24 seconds total). The spy might do less damage in melee than a skirm currently does to a Hussar (age 2 stats), but doubling their attack damage would certainly cause them to over perform a traditional unit vs a hard counter (and they arguably already do with Agents).

Obviously they are countered within a normal range right now.

Edit 2: though with Agents in they become a softer counter. No one has a +50% skirm hp card with no drawback.

Is my math wrong? Please enlighten me. If I miscalculated I’m happy to be proven wrong. When adjusting for Pop and RoF Hussars are a far weaker counter to Agents than to Skirms. I fully admitted here that regular spies are within a normal counter range right now. If you double their base damage they might or might not be within that range still, my main problem with that idea is that they will still have serious issues vs some mercs with the lack of a ranged attack (and no, I don’t count occasion charged attacks). Agents is also a bit concerning as it seems to push Spies out of a normal “countered” range in relation to Hussars which is mostly an issue due to Snare and Cover mode. Spies had the HI tag once, so cover mode had basically no risk of being an issue at that time. Times have changed.

@WolfishICE

You didn’t even know spies had a cover mod, and yet you still started piling on your “expert opinion”.

I forgot a stat on an underused unit. As for the expert claim…

@Kingfisher1787

@WolfishICE

There was a time when I was a top 150 Treaty player.

Treaty rank doesn’t mean as much as you might think, but if you want to argue that way, I was rank 69 in treaty at one point and rank 72 for a long while (both a while back).

At least recently, I denigrated my own previous rank, I said it doesn’t mean much and only brought it up after you did. Unless you have improved a lot, I’m probably still better than you, but whatever. Players of poor skill can hold correct opinions, you just rarely do imo. Based on what I saw of your 3v3 Malta gameplay it was pretty bad. Things that work at that level will be fairly far removed from what works at higher levels. Bad input generally equals bad outputs. It’s not really even your fault.

@WolfishICE

RODELERO EASTER EGG

A very expensive, slow-to-build unit, with damage like a pikeman, and no ability to destroy buildings. Its only advantage, a fast sprint, is negated by a corselet. This is an example of extremely poor design. I know that historically this unit was really bad, but I wouldn’t want to use it solely as a historical Easter egg.
You need to choose one from the list:

• it can’t destroy buildings
• it’s expensive and takes a long time to build
• it has low dps
• team Hidalgos doesn’t work on it

Not all at once.
If you approach the problem creatively, without changing the unit’s base state, you could add a charged pistol attack like the Hospitaller/Highwayman, linking it to the Archaic Combat card, but that would be repetitive.
You could also add a damage bonus for Rodelero to the Team Destreza card, but I’m not sure how good an idea it is with hybrids like that.
The unit itself is so bad that I don’t really have any ideas on how to make it work in a way that’s both unique and effective. Maybe people have better suggestions than mine.

@platypus_slayer1

@JuanTheHunter

I will close this topic FOREVER if I hear a comment from some professional that these guys are f*****g awesome,

2100 elo high enough? Been top 15 (crazy cool seeing people grow in this game). I know the rest would agree but will take time to roll in the quotes since aint no aoe3 player can be truly pro so will take time..

Batu a AoM pro and also semi/pro aoe3 player

Shake saying they very good but melee unit class overall meh. Moonshine saying they OP

Is that enough? Or you gonna force a recount?

Even to this day you haven’t stopped with the complaints about Rods. Pros like them, but they can micro better than either of us. You also didn’t seem to care about their opinions much in that thread…
(Edit, so you seemingly aren’t too keen on changing your opinions either.)

@WolfishICE

@platypus_slayer1

Is that enough? Or you gonna force a recount?

Got it. I’d like to see how good they are against cuirassiers, sipahs, harquebusiers, lancers and chinakos, elephants. That’s why I said they should cost less or become stronger. Fighting cavalry is their main function, but I have my doubts after seeing how the Guard Sentinels can’t handle the Charro. Or after the Hospitallers failed to defeat the cuirassiers.

Speed is good with good micro. That’s part of what you’re paying for. If you don’t think they perform well late game you have Pikes, Dragoons, and probably best of all Unction Musketeers.

@WolfishICE

You don’t understand the issue, you don’t know how melee infantry and ranged infantry differ. You either don’t understand anything about game balance, or you’re a pathological liar.

Ranged units take fuller advantage of Lancaster’s Law, melee units don’t. This matters more as more units join the field. Notice how after someone suggested spies need a ranged attack I started pushing for that? I don’t think the only anti-merc super-specialist should fall off hard in huge battles. Buffing melee units to work in huge battle is really really dangerous because the game has snare and melee units (with some exceptions) work just fine in 1v1s.

@WolfishICE

@Kingfisher1787

Having said all that, I see no point in arguing with you anymore. You seemingly won’t change your opinion even when pros tell you you’re wrong.

You have such a disrespect for yourself, the audience, and your opponent.

Circling back to here, I respect my time enough not to bother replying to you every post. All you seem to want is for spies to work better against standard units which is bad game design. To point out my issue with that using the math from early, spies (unupgraded) have 5 hand attack with a 20x vs mercs for a whopping 200 damage every 3 seconds vs mercs. That’s a lot higher than our pop and RoF adjusted numbers for Hussars which have a similar range (0) and speed (only 0.5 higher). Of course spies cost a tad more than 0.5 Hussars, but the damage is just so much higher. A unit with such high anti-countered unit damage probably shouldn’t get cover mode. The unit necessarily must have limited counters to be able to counter a class of units that ranging from Swiss Pikes to Harqs to Jaegers, but that also means it can’t be made too good against other things.

@platypus_slayer1

There was a short patch after KotM where port spies would nuke anything with agents thanks to constables before they toned it way back

But basically a plus 10 to range damage made them fast musk, with less counter play.

Ofc this was regulated to team games where honestly stacking cheese like an Italian parmesean bank is the goal, but again cover mode and mono res units are easy to break

I think adding utility like others have suggested to counter outlaws would be nice. Maybe natives too. Or healers. Just make them not a super niche counter unit and that alone makes them less niche.

This card turn Spy's into OP units!!!

This video was from when Portuguese Spies were bugged. They got the full +10 from Constable even in cover mode (it’s +6 and +3 in CM now post nerf/fix). Ports didn’t even get around to sending Agents and it’s worth noting that Otto only used like 6 merc cav. He wasn’t spamming mercs at all. When I was complaining about risks that spies could get out of hand earlier vs normal units this proves both that I was slightly more worried than is fair and that I had a point, just slightly less of one.

Myself and Plat don’t always agree, but even if I think he’s wrong or visa versa, I don’t recall anytime either of use have found discussion not to be worth it. I think we’re both around similar elo, just high enough to understand what’s above us, even imperfectly, but also low enough to see some of what one can get away with at lower elos. (Edit, we’re looking at roughly the same facts and sometimes coming to different conclusions, which is very productive and interesting)

I think adding a ranged attack on spies with 12 range and 10 attack with a 12-16x vs mercs and a 4-5x vs heroes and removing their cover mode would probably be the best option. Assassins adds the charged longer range rifle attack and Agents could use a little reworking probably. Maybe drop their speed a bit given the range, like to 5.75 maybe.