# Split the militia line into two units **URL:** \ **Category:** II - Discussion\ **Created:** [November 26, 2024, 9:28am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719 "2024-11-26T09:28:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TommoChocolate](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/tommochocolate/32/197278_2.png) [@TommoChocolate](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/TommoChocolate)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 4:51pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/41 "2024-12-03T16:51:08Z")
> [@Mahazona](#): > > I agree but doubt Goths would have something unique in the ranged side.So a closest thing we can have is a german thing. If the unit needs a unique weapon, I guess that makes sense. I’d be fine with it having a non-unique weapon – e.g. sling, javelin, bow – provided it has a somewhat appropriate name. > [@Skadidesu](#): > > The reason why I want to make the Huskarl a regional unit is so that it can be shared with a new Saxon civ that represents the Anglo Saxons and the Continental Saxons of the early Middle Ages. I think such a civ would have the same problem, since the Continental Saxons had good cavalry, at least in the later middle ages. > [@Skadidesu](#): > > Some kind of slinger, throwing weapon unit would make sense to have bonus damage vs. both Siege and Infantry in my opinion. At least as much sense as some other bonus damage in the game, anyway. > [@KHANATTILA](#): > > Goths… are strange. I really like the design of Goths – one of the best civ designs, in my opinion. Very unique playstyle achieved through very simple types of bonuses, techs, and tech tree restrictions. I’d like to see more civs designed that way, and fewer with gimmicks like auras and charge attacks. I agree they shouldn’t have gunpowder though. > [@KHANATTILA](#): > > So to complicate their lives they removed the stone walls, just to make it harder to do a passive full boom. Fun fact: Goths not having stone walls is actually a reference to the Ostogothic king Totila razing the walls of cities he conquered. (Source: [Age 2 Design Document](https://archive.org/details/age2designdocument/page/n53/mode/2up), p. 53) ![](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/7/e/7ecf871d9043570a286464710a1352c6c284fc27.jpeg) > [@SamePorpoise303](#): > > If the issue is Goths countering infantry, remove hand cannons and bombards and just give them arbalesters or thumb ring and siege engineers. This would also work. I think I’d rather give them Parthian tactics than arbalesters – that way, they’d have fully upgraded cavalry archers, representing the Alans and Sarmatians that Wikipedia tells me they had in their armies. ---
**Author:** ![Skadidesu](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/skadidesu/32/172243_2.png) [@Skadidesu](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Skadidesu)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 7:58pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/42 "2024-12-03T19:58:05Z")
> [@TommoChocolate](#): > > I think such a civ would have the same problem, since the Continental Saxons had good cavalry, at least in the later middle ages. The later Saxons are perfectly covered by the Teutons the same way the English are covered by the Britons. ---
**Author:** ![TommoChocolate](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/tommochocolate/32/197278_2.png) [@TommoChocolate](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/TommoChocolate)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 7:22am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/43 "2024-12-04T07:22:03Z")
Oh whoops, somehow I only took in the phrase “Continental Saxons” and missed that you said “of the early Middle Ages”. ---
**Author:** ![JordanEver](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jordanever/32/30228_2.png) [@JordanEver](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/JordanEver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 12:15pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/44 "2024-12-04T12:15:23Z")
In a sense, having the Militia-line split in two and having them upgrade/replace to the Civ unique unit would be the better alternative. Like, Swordsman and Two Handed. Swordsman is the cheap gold cost and better pierce armor unit while Two handed is the higher gold cost, lower pierce armor but high damage to figh infantry and cavalry. Militia → Man-at-Arms → Long Swordsman → Heavy Swordsman (New) NONE → NONE → Two-Handed Swordsman → Champion Then the two would be replaced by the unique unit of the faction. So for example, the Huskarl would replace the long swordsman while the Samurai would replace the Two-handed swordsman. The problem is that people would want to add new unique units to all these factions… Also, for me the main problem is the archery range. The way how archer turn into crossbowman is really silly. Ironically the Battle for Greece did the right thing and archers just upgrade for better archer. They really needed to change the Archer and Crossbowman into two different units. The crossbowman should of course be upgraded to Hand Cannoneers for the civs that have then, so civs that don’t use powder can have their poor-man hand canonners, like the Goths. ---
**Author:** ![KHANATTILA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/khanattila/32/30722_2.png) [@KHANATTILA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/KHANATTILA)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 4:27pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/45 "2024-12-04T16:27:50Z")
> [@TommoChocolate](#): > > I really like the design of Goths – one of the best civ designs, in my opinion. Very unique playstyle achieved through very simple types of bonuses, techs, and tech tree restrictions. I’d like to see more civs designed that way, and fewer with gimmicks like auras and charge attacks. Boom into flood? Or lame into more lame? Because these are the only game plans you have with the Goths ---
**Author:** ![TommoChocolate](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/tommochocolate/32/197278_2.png) [@TommoChocolate](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/TommoChocolate)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 9:42pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/46 "2024-12-04T21:42:35Z")
Neither of those is a game plan. Boom into flood is the usual aim, but you have to get there with bonuses and a tech tree that don’t obviously help you get there. I’m not interested in an argument and I’m not trying to change your mind, just voice my opinion. I like Goths and don’t want them to be changed to be like Aztecs. We already have a civ like Aztecs, it’s called Aztecs. ---
**Author:** ![Skadidesu](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/skadidesu/32/172243_2.png) [@Skadidesu](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Skadidesu)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 7:43am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/47 "2024-12-05T07:43:27Z")
Have you heard of this game call Age of Empires 4? Jokes aside. I agree with you but we both know that that much change is impossible. The only generic land unit added to the game since AoC is the Siege Tower. ---
**Author:** ![Mahazona](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/mahazona/32/213405_2.png) [@Mahazona](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Mahazona)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 8:03am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/48 "2024-12-05T08:03:22Z")
> [@Skadidesu](#): > > The only generic land unit added to the game since AoC is the Siege Tower. Even that is pretty useless.I doubt there is a role that another land unit can fill which needs filling. ---
**Author:** ![Skadidesu](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/skadidesu/32/172243_2.png) [@Skadidesu](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Skadidesu)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 9:10am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/49 "2024-12-05T09:10:37Z")
The devs are really afraid of bigger changes. For example Camels used to share an armour class with ships so some units that were supposed to counter Camels had ship bonus damage for example. After they added a Camel armour class almost all the units with anti ship damage also got anti camel damage and units that were supposed to counter camels kept anti ship damage. Now Spearman and Camel Riders have bonus damage vs. Ships while all buildings have bonus damage vs. Camels. Even new units like the Flemish Milita do bonus damage vs. Ships for some reason. There are a lot of roles that could be covered by new units. Like there is no real generic anti infantry unit because Hand Cannons are only available to half the civilisations and also limited to Imperial Age. ---
**Author:** ![AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/abuzzjam4677680/32/55419_2.png) [@AbuzzJam4677680](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/AbuzzJam4677680)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 9:41am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/50 "2024-12-05T09:41:59Z")
> [@Skadidesu](#): > > Hand Cannons are only available to half the civilisations and also limited to Imperial Age. Usually only civs with good xbow/ cavalry archers do not have access to hand cannoneer. Devs original design should be ranged units countering infantry hard. ---
**Author:** ![KHANATTILA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/khanattila/32/30722_2.png) [@KHANATTILA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/KHANATTILA)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 9:46am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/51 "2024-12-05T09:46:26Z")
> [@TommoChocolate](#): > > Neither of those is a game plan. Boom into flood is the usual aim, but you have to get there with bonuses and a tech tree that don’t obviously help you get there. > > I’m not interested in an argument and I’m not trying to change your mind, just voice my opinion. I like Goths and don’t want them to be changed to be like Aztecs. We already have a civ like Aztecs, it’s called Aztecs. It is not a question of making the Goths into Aztecs. But if we agree that HCs and bombards make no sense for the Goths, their power spike should be moved slightly earlier imo ---
**Author:** ![KHANATTILA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/khanattila/32/30722_2.png) [@KHANATTILA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/KHANATTILA)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2024, 10:27am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/52 "2024-12-06T10:27:13Z")
> [@Skadidesu](#): > > The devs are really afraid of bigger changes. But a Free Update, entitled for example ‘The Men of the North’, in which you improve on both the Goths, the Vikings and the Celts, would be really good, wouldn’t it? > Gothic armies were primarily composed of heavy infantry equipped with a shield, [spatha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatha) or [scramasax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramasax) and the occasional [francisca](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisca) and [pike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)) formed in wedge formation, with a supporting heavy cavalry force equipped with lance and sword.[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_and_Vandal_warfare#cite_note-3) Although Goths were the first of the Germanic tribes to place more honour in fighting on horse than on foot, equipping cavalrymen was expensive and infantry remained the larger force.[[4]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_and_Vandal_warfare#cite_note-gotcav-4) Visigoths had fewer cavalry, Ostrogoths had more cavalry than the Roman army, while Vandals were dominated by cavalry.[[5]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_and_Vandal_warfare#cite_note-5) For example, in the Goths you could swap: - Hand Cannoneer → Thumb Ring - Hussar → Plate Barding Armor - Bombard Cannon → Siege Ram In the Vikings you can move the Berserkers to the barracks and add the Jarl to the castle. And the Celts would actually need more robust work, with a new name and certainly a new UU. ---
**Author:** ![Skadidesu](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/skadidesu/32/172243_2.png) [@Skadidesu](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Skadidesu)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2024, 11:04am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/53 "2024-12-06T11:04:50Z")
> [@KHANATTILA](#): > > For example, in the Goths you could swap: > > - Hand Cannoneer → Thumb Ring > - Hussar → Plate Barding Armor > - Bombard Cannon → Siege Ram Thinking about it, what about Parthian Tactics? The Goths did hire mercenaries from the steppes. Parthian Tactics plus Thumb Ring would give them fully upgraded Cavalry Archers, wouldn’t it? Goth Steppe Lancers would be funny but I think that would move to much away from the Infantry focus. ---
**Author:** ![Skadidesu](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/skadidesu/32/172243_2.png) [@Skadidesu](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Skadidesu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2025, 8:48am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/54 "2025-02-17T08:48:29Z")
I thought about the idea of splitting the Milita Line some more. I came to the conclusion that the Spearman Line should change too to fit better into the mix. ## Spearman Line - Starts in **Dark Age** - New Heavy Pikeman in Castle Age - Increased **cost** to 40 Food 30 Wood (+5 Food and Wood) #### Spearman - Available in Dark Age - **HP:** 40 (-5) - Everything else unchanged ##### Pikeman - Available in Feudal Age - **HP:** 50 (-5) - Everything else unchanged ##### Heavy Pikeman - Available in Castle Age - Attack: 5 (+1 from Pikeman, -1 compared to Halberdier) - **HP:** 60 (+5 from Pikeman) - Bonus damage in between Pikeman and Halbedier - Everything else unchanged ##### Halberdier - **HP:** 70 (+10) - available to less civilisations compared to now - Everything else unchanged This line is mostly unchanged. A little more durable but a little more expensive. This is to balance the fact that it’s available since Dark Age now. Fine tuning of this unit line can easily be done by adjusting the Spearman Bonus damage for ranged units. ## Milita Line - Starts in **Feudal Age** - Supplies and Gambeson removed - **Cost** is the same as after Supplies (45 Food 20 Gold) #### Militia - Armour: 1/1 - Everything else the same as current Man-At-Arms #### Man-At-Arms - Armour: 2/2 - Everything else the same as current Long Swordsman #### Long Swordsman - Armour: 2/2 - Everything else the same as current Champion This unit line is very similar to the current Milita Line with the core advantage of requiring a lot less upgrades: - Stats in 1 Age later - Has only 1 Imperial Age unit - No Supplies and Gambeson required Other then that it only offers +1 Melee Armour. It’s overall supposed to be a generalist unit line. Kind of just like a dismounted Knight. ## Two Handed Swordsman Line - Starts in Castle Age - **Cost:** 25 Food 40 Gold - **Speed:** 1.1 (Faster then Spearman or Huskarl, slower then Eagle Warrior or Condottiero) - Does 25% AoE damage in 0.75 Tile radius - Take 50% less Pierce and Melee damage from Siege units (anti Infantry bonus damage unaffected) #### Two Handed Swordsman - Available in Castle Age - **Armour:** 2/0 - Everything else the same as current Long Swordsman #### Champion - **Armour:** 3/1 - Everything else unchanged This unit line is more of an anti Melee and anti Siege while being weak to Archers. They naturally counter Spearman and Milita Line units but are also better against cavalry because of the Area of Effect damage. Their reduced pierce armour is somewhat made up by increased speed. Their special anti Siege armour makes them a natural counter against the Halberd+Siege combination. Their higher Gold cost makes them easier to mass in Castle Age but less viable in the late game when Gold is running low. # Summery #### Spearman Line - Bad against Archers and Siege - Good against Cavalry - Countered by both other Infantry Lines #### Milita Line - Bad against Siege - All round unit - Countered by Two Handed Swordsman Line #### Two Handed Swordsman Line - Bad against Archers - Resistent against siege - Good against other Infantry All numbers are up for debate of course. Especially the new Two Handed Swordsman Line needs some testing. Is the 0 base Pierce armour in Castle bad enough to make them entirely useless? Are they just better Urumis? Is the anti Siege armour OP? Can civs without good Archers (Like Celts) deal with them at all? ## Civ bonuses - Armenian early access bonus needs to be changed - Japanese attack speed might have to be reduced - Goths discount might have to be reduced - Roman double Armour upgrade bonus might be too strong in Castle Age ## Tech Trees - Most Tech Trees have to be changed - Imperial Age Infantry upgrades should be more rare then they are now - Squires and Arson should become less common I know that’s all never going to happen because AoE2 will never change that much. But one can dream. ---
**Author:** ![ArrangedCrown94](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/arrangedcrown94/32/184892_2.png) [@ArrangedCrown94](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/ArrangedCrown94)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2025, 5:38am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719/55 "2025-02-19T05:38:12Z")
These are some great ideas [Previous page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/split-the-militia-line-into-two-units/266719.md?page=2)