Springalds?

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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(Clear this up out the gate: No, I’m vehemently against a return to anti-siege function in any capacity!!)

EGCTV’s TEAM Tournament just concluded, and congrats to Team Canada, and cheers to all the other teams that joined for giving us, what i believe to be, the best mass fighting, devasting raids, and sneaky team coop plays I’ve ever seen!

However, with the mass fights? I can’t recall seeing any springalds? At least not a number of them?? I would see 2+ mangos, and in a few fights i saw 7+ mangos!! But, no more than 1 springald, here and there??

Currently the springald is efficiently countered by range, melee cav and, infantry that can get on top of them?? But given their given mech, they don’t efficiently splash, let alone kill the units they should kill.

Or are we to believe that the best of the best at the game still haven’t figured out how to leverage the springalds in a competitive advantage??

Take 3dbee, a huge aoe4 innovator and one willing to use units that are unpopular, like the current iteration of Nest of Bees? How come not even 3dbee spammed springalds?? And bee made it to the Finals?

How do we make springalds functional? Or unlock their current functionality? More range? More range armor? More bonus?? Faster reload?

Already they are immobile which is fine, bc its a siege unit, but then it needs effectively high DPS no?? Technically springalds have a theoretically high effective DPS! but should DPS isnt practical given th stars need to align and enemy range and cav need not focus it down.

But if you could have 2+ mangos to deter range units from encroaching then 6+ springalds to thin out enemy frontline, then a front of your own??? Maybe, but this sounds hella micro intensive meanwhile the enemy comp can more readily A-move your army??

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Yeah, right now springalds and Siege Tower are useless.

Personally, I would prefer springalds to take the role of mangonels and mangonels take the role of trebs, but in feudal age, with adjusted damage to buildings but with more range than a TC or a Tower. This way, at least all siege units would have a role. But 1 as anti melee and 1 as anti range is not really a great idea. You need a lot of control groups and micro to use your army and at least 2 types of siege to attack. And right now, it is still better to have 2-3 mangonels and focus a mass of spearmen.

I don’t have any idea of how to make Siege Towers useful. Maybe add some damage if there are archers inside, or increase the number of units you can put inside, idk.

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2 siege in feudal? I would argue feudal, as well as dark age are often underwhelming and typically functions as a staging transitional phase for castle where the real game takes place? But I’m not sure a mini “treb” would make feudal more eventful in an interesting and dynamic way? If its too effective then it becomes the new Ram all-in of old? And if it’s meh, then you just wasted age up/eco resources?

But… i do like a feudal mangonel?!! What if we could get a 2 boulder mangonel in feudal!! Then get a veteran upgrade in castle with the final crossbow imp upgrade??? Make the feudal version have less hp and a lil less range armor. Then it would being more of the “fun” to feudal and aging would become more of a tech/relic gathering maneuver??

But back on topic? Maybe springalds should move to feudal?? That might be too strong?? But currently no civ is spamming springs except niche ottomans??

Lets take mangonels for example. Some games devolve into mega mass mangonels, but at the same time those same games can autocorrect with an optimal use of cavalry. And partly bc of mango dodges. You can’t dodge springald but the dmg per unit has no BOOM effect like a perfect mangonel shot does?

I got it!!! Adjust springalds to inflect a BLEED on all bio units hit!! Make the bleed equivalent to the current posion mech so no need to rewrite much code. Keep all other aspects of thr springalds as is. This will merely be added DPS but the bleeding effect will make the dps appear attractive and it not being instant dps makes it feel a bit rewarding the more bleed you can stack and watch the enemy slowly wither away!!! We already have the red glow from trample and monk debuff?? Just add the red glow to BLEED!!

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It can work, depending on the balance. Mangonels are more expensive (like 3 rams, I don’t remember) so it is not an easy 8 minutes all in. You can not put them into feudal just like that, is not an easy change. Needs balance, but at least it is a way to give every siege a role.

Sounds good

I think it would be the same. In feudal you will not have a big mass of infantry to deal with springalds, neither to defend your own springalds. I think they would just die as well without benefit.

IDK what to say about the rest, I already said all my ideas xD

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This game doesnt make enough use of status effects. Use we have damage over time and stun a several units. But we could make use of confusion (friendly fire), a stun unit or activating stun effect? Slow (movement and attack speed).

And the best way to implement some of these ideas are threw a progression decider; either you get this buff or you get that!!

Like springalds could get a bleed buff or a stun buff. Bleed obviously meaning higher dps overtime but stun meaning they cant easily reposition/fight back, effectively reducing the enemy dps and making them more susceptible to splash dmg!

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Springalds are underrated because people don’t take into account their reduced cost. They cost a little more than 1 knight. How much do you expect 1 knight to do by itself or even 2 knights?
You need 4 or 5 springalds and then they cost effectively and adequately deal with any melee infantry. They also need some kind of front line just as a mangonel does.

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It is true they are cheap, but nobody likes them.

Take into account that in most fights, infantry usually fights in like a line, moving to the sides to find a place to attack. This leads to a line of 1-2 units of infantry in most cases, while the ranged units usually stays in a “ball”. This means that when the fight has started, every springald will potentially attack 2 units if you micro them. If you are unlucky and press A move, they can even attack cavalry. On the other side, mangonels have a better and clear target, a mass of ranged units. So they are not only better, but easier to use.

The best scenario for springalds is a mass of infantry moving towards them, where you can attack them all before they spread. But only with the line formation you are safe enought, and then you can kill springalds with your ranged units. They don’t put the same pressure on your troops as a mangonel. You know you can’t just ignore mangonels, but you can almost ignore some springalds and then make some focus and take them all. With the low cost of springalds, you need (and you can) to mass like 20 springalds to really be a threat, but nobody will have an slow army of springalds. Usually you build a certain amount of siege for a pretented use (take down a keep, a wall, a TC) but nobody will just spam springalds like a normal military unit.

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where do you find these takes? HOw do you suppose anyone missed the updated that half the price of springalds from 500 resources down to 250?? You honestly think ppl dont take that into account?

you can win a whole game with 1-2 knights at the right time and place. Heck the whole Japanese FC build is based on timely 1-2, then more mounted samurai doing their thing. Meanwhile 1, heck even 2 springalds will seldom have the opportunities to be as impactful as 1-2 knights.

the magic number vs most castle age units is 5, with 2 volleys max to clean up the target infantry melee; however like @Llorsh mentioned; units are SELDOM mesh in the formation that optimize springald splash dmg, which requires a straight line in the tragetory of the springald shot; and it gets worse since you can’t fire all 5 springalds from a single point it means you’ll never get all 5 shots to splash the exact same set of units that you magically get to form a straight line in front of the springalds.

I’m game now using one of the unit vs unit Mode and just made 6 donso to stand in a stand no formation stand ground 3 man front. Made one springald to hit the stationary donsos and it appears the splash from the springs does not even reach the adajecent unit standing in close non-formation (formation). So only the front unit and the unit directly behind the shot gets hit? So not only is it unlikely you’ll consistently have a LINE of units directly in front of the springalds, but you then need mutiple springalds hitting at several angles to splash everything.

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Yeah, basically you said all the reason for people to not use springalds. All these problems make them hard to use. You need a perfect scenario to really make the damage you want.

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I’d say actually that most people probably are not aware of the change, even at conq I had several players running around shooting deer when I played rus. You underestimate just how casual most players are, this is even more so at lower ranks like gold.

Your comparing the 2 units at different points in the game, in castle age 2 knights aren’t anywhere near as impactful as they are in early feudal. Also a springald is more like 1 knight than 2 knights in resource cost.

I do agree that the unit penetration aspect of the springald is flawed and instead should be changed to splash damage so you get the same amount of effect but in all directions.

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This is a balance option, but a non realistic one. There is no way a projectile like that can just splash. I know not everything is about realism, but there are some aspects of the game that we can be sure that won’t be changed by devs.

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I suppose they could just buff the springald so it is more effective in general and leave the penetration aspect as a nice bonus rather than an important feature in the strength of the unit.

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I not convince ppl dont know springalds are cheaper than they use to be.

We were originally comparing 1 springald or 2 springalds vs 1 knight or 2 knights. You suppose 1 or 2 knights in castle aren’t as impactful as they would be in feudal? But that’s moving the topic around. In castle when springalds become available vs when standard knights are available; 1 or 2 knights/lancers can absolutely win you the game IN CASTLE… meanwhile in castle 1 or 2 springalds aint winning you no game; at best 2+ springalds behind a massive army might make your mass edge out the enemy mass; that’s not the same impact.

Edit
Springald dps per unit cost only begin to rival crossbow dps per cost vs heavy infantry units once there are 3 enemy infantry unit targets??? Supposing you can consistently hit 3+ heavy infantry units per shot is a bit much?

So I think they should augment the Springald DPS with bleed on top of the above suggestions.

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The point of this post isn’t really about comparing knights to springalds though, I merely made the observation that now they are much cheaper and so you need more of them.

If they don’t compare to the stats of a knight despite being similar in cost then they definitely need a buff. How to buff them is another question though, I’ve suggested making them do aoe damage but as Llorsh says that isn’t very realistic/accurate.

Just looking at stats it is clear that knights have more HP, more DPS, only a slightly lower base attack, more armor and more mobility. The only thing the springald has going for it is that it is a ranged unit. The springald is also much worse vs anything that isn’t melee and it’s bonus to melee only brings it’s raw damage to slightly more than a knights regular attack vs anything.

How do you suggest the springald is buffed so it becomes worth it for its cost over knights?

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I dont know if the knight is the unit we want to use as the reference power level/versatility; the knight a lot of ppl think is OVERTUNED; its mobile; its armored; it charges and its relatively cheap…

I actually rewrote this section at least 4 times as it did a few iteration of this vs that; numbers, numbers, numbers… Springalds as, a steady dmg that becomes impactful the longer the enemy clump stands in front of it, isn’t a bad role; so I think the only thing we should try to do is increase the range resistance to 80% (70% before the upgrade) and increase the range by 0.5 tiles. Each time I play the numbers the DPS isn’t the issue (on paper).

Edit
The springlads need the bleed and or posion effects. Current springlads are too bland and niche in the opportunities to excel at high dps. Let’s start with 5 dmg over 10s. Ppl want pizzazz!!! And or efficiency and springlads are neither!

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I heard the idea in twitch chat.

Make springalds do siege dmg instead of range dmg. Still give springalds +0.5 range.

This will make springalds do a consistent amount of dmg that can’t be blocked with armor.

This should remove bsm range bonuses from springalds.

This should mean springalds will get an upgrade with imperial siege bonus.

This will not change( i dont think) springalds vs siege since siege have range resistances and i think seige dmg counts as range for the purposes of resistances?

The only downside or inadvertent bonus?? Is now springalds would become a mini 8 range trebuchets? :thinking:. The siege dmg is negligible compared to torch dmg or real siege units but the idea of an all inclusive unit though?? Then again archers get incendiary arrows which gives them a mini siege factor, so is this perk really broken?

If these changes were to occur. A Springald cost for cost would be inferior to a crossbowman Iff hitting on average less than 2 units per volley. But would be worth more dps cost for cost in 2+ units splashed.