Currently, European civilizations receive Native units through shipments, and those units take up population space. In contrast, the Native units granted by American and African age-up options do not consume population space.
Standardizing this mechanic across all civilizations would make these options more homogeneous and consistent. For example, Spain’s Reconquista provides 15 Conquistadors, but those units require additional housing, whereas comparable units granted through Ethiopian or Mexican age-ups do not.
Having all age-up-granted units either consume population space or be treated as population-free would make the mechanic more consistent across civilizations and avoid situations where otherwise similar age-up rewards have different population implications.
tienen numeros de entrenamiento mayores a lo estandar (españa entrena 20 y mexico 12) y con respecto a los africanos, es como sus tropas auxiliares que valen influencia
they are treated as different mechanics by the game for the most part.
the ones that takes up population space have a unique symbol for them in the unit and that should be treated seperately from those that dont have that
maybe a different name as well to further distinguish them
just broadly applying it to every instance of this is not ideal, then things like Inca and Hausa (and potentially other Native American civs) which also have similar mechanics are nerfed when their version of how it works is fine.
I prefer the way its done with the natrualised chevalier for the germans, something like that would be ok enough
There is a standardised rule behind it, If it’s an Age up Mechanic (Federal Cards are age up mechanics) the pop doesn’t change. If sending a card grants the player the ability to train native units then they cost pop space.
Unless the player is Inca because the War Chief has an aura that boosts native units.
It’s actually a malus to send those royal house cards when the house in question is on the map.
Prinz Chevalier isn’t a native unit at all it’s affected by cavalry upgrade cards for germany the native version does not. Speaking of…What’s the real point of sending the Prince Electors card? You don’t get the technologies you don’t have upgrade cards for them and you still have build limits.
in non treaty, its for access to musk which germans doesnt get
or there are funny FI builds you can do with the line infantry since sending the infinite 17 line infantry card gets you the guard upgrade which also techs the native habsburg from prince electors to guard and you can make them right away (they dont overlap in build limit)
But is it worth a deck slot? especially since you get no uhlans for age 1 cards
The infinite 17 line infantry doesn’t cost pop if you don’t select Hapsburg for prince electors.
they dont cost pop even if you select hapsburg they are different units that get treated differently
If you are doing this strat you are kind of commiting to it but it is the fastest way to get a guard level unit as germany and massing it as well. You get a build limit of 23 so you have 40 guard level musk to push with heavy cannons + the mounted infantry if you want more.
Its basically the german version of the Otto Nizam FI or Dutch Blue Guard FI
If I remember correctly, this is because there are two types of Native units. The first type is the ones you get access to by allying with a minor civ, while the second type is the ones obtained through other ways. Both basically have the same stats, names and looks, but when you drag-select them, they show up as two separate groups instead of being combined. I once noticed this when I was playing the British in Carolina and selected the Cherokee Riflemen trained at the TP together with the Cherokee Riflemen sent through shipments.
When you have a Prince Electors-like card that makes the Native units use population, it actually activates the second type of unit to use population. For example, when the French and Germans can use a card to train Royal units at the Embassies but have to spend population on them, all those units obtained through simple shipments from cards or age-ups will also go from not costing population to costing population. You’ll also notice that those shipped Royal units count toward the training limit for units at the Embassies. I haven’t used those cards in a while, but that’s how I remember it working from my previous experience.
I think the reason these cards make the units cost population is because accessing them doesn’t require competing for building a TP on the map, so there’s no way to disrupt that access. If you have to compete for the access, then since the competition itself is fair, it makes sense for the units not to cost population. But if there’s no competition involved, then making them cost population provides a way to balance it out. As for why similar cards for other civs like the Inca don’t make those units cost population, it might simply be because doing so would make those civs too weak.
So overall, contrary to what people often assume, having that kind of card activate population costs might actually be the standard, while not having it would instead be a bonus for the civs. I used to be pretty bothered by the point that Native units become possible to use population space, until I seriously considered that this kind of access can’t be blocked or disrupted.
The one thing I still really dislike, though, is that if it’s designed this way, then at the very least, the simple unit shipments from cards and age-ups shouldn’t also suddenly start using population. Alternatively, all of that kind of cards could simply not activate population costs, but the training limit at the Embassies could be something like half the limit of a single TP if needed for civs like French and Germans.
I agree on that point. The Incas and Hausa desperately need them, while USA, Mexico and Ethiopia don’t. The mechanics were fine when only the Incas had that hidden bonus.
That’s not the reason; it’s because it becomes unfair in the long run when combined with other native shipments that don’t cost population, especially regarding the Treaty game mode.
I don’t mind native units costing population, provided they don’t affect the natives already present on the map, like what happens with the Germans and the Prince Electors card, or when they become standard trainable units, such as the Akano for the Hausa or the Chevau-léger for Germany (Neither unit conflicts with its map-based counterparts—or, in Akan’s case, with the ones unlocked via the Kingdom or those found on the map—which is why I think they are fine)
With Prince-Electors, once you choose your desired Royal House, it also affects the corresponding Royal Houses on the map, which is stupid; the reason they cost population is that you have two infinite native shipments in your deck that don’t cost population.
As for the Reconquista card, I personally think it shouldn’t cost population, provided there is a creation limit of 12 units (similar to the ones found on the map). In exchange, I would remove the ‘Infinite Mayans’ card for the reasons I explained earlier.
You didn’t read my post carefully. I did mention that point.
The Prince Electors and similar cards make the second type of Native units go from not using population to using population, while units provided by minor civs on the map are always the first type, so of course they separately work that way.
Based on my experience, units obtained through cards or age-ups are usually the second type.
If I remember correctly, I think they do start using population.
The Germans can simply send 17 Habsburg Allies (infinitly ship 17 Line Infantry and upgrade them if not yet) without those units using population. But once you use the Elector card and choose Habsburg, those Habsburg units from simple shipments also start using population, because they’re the second type of Native units, the ones that aren’t obtained by allying with a minor civ on the map.
On the other hand, even if you use the Prince Electors card and choose Habsburg, the Habsburg units provided by the minor civ on the map are still supposed to be not use population. Those are the first type, so they aren’t affected.
If the units from shipments also start using population, then the problem you mentioned doesn’t really exist. Or if you mean the shipments of other Native units, though, that’s a different story, because the second type of those Native units isn’t enabled for training at your buildings.
I don’t actually like this design; I just accept that it might be necessary. If you can’t destroy the TP to cut off access to training, then the units basically need to use population. If they don’t use population, then it’s essentially a bonus for that civ, like the American Allies card for the Inca.
Apparently I haven’t used these cards in a long time (as I said, I don’t really like them), so it’s possible that I’m remembering it wrong, or that it used to work this way but the effect was changed later.
no they dont, you get 2 seperate grouops of units, the 17 from the cards continue to not cost pop and the 23 from the embassy do cost pop
its the reverse with prince electors, but you do get extra build limit with them which is a very weird interaction
Prince electors is a very strange card its the only one that works this way
For the the french ancien regime, Danish oldenburg kings and polish royal union they are seperate units from the TP nats, but the prince electors does some weird stuff that isnt fully understood
edit edit: tp add on to the weirdness, the baskhir rebellion tartar archers works in a 3rd different way, they are seperate units from the TP nats but getting for some reason also increases the build limit for the normal tengri nats
Then there might be something wrong with the coding behind this card. It should work the way I described.
If the Tengri archers obtained through unit shipments also start taking up population space after the card is sent, then it’s working as intended. The increase to the minor civ unit limit might just be an additional effect of that card.
It is worth clarifying that I don’t consider the area-damage Conquistador to be an overpowered unit, at least not the ones obtained via Trading Posts. I’m not sure if the ones from Shipment cards are overpowered, but if they are, it would be due to how they are acquired rather than the unit itself.
