Stats are in: Incas nerfed from winning civ to losing civ

No because civs can be underrated or overrated. Based on this criteria civs like Slavs and Indians look bad, despite the fact they clearly aren’t.

No, the trush happened all the time on all maps, and was anything but a joke.

I’m pretty sure if you removed position picking and the likes, people would just stick to a select few civs that are good on all maps. This would do no good to the Byzantine and the likes, since tryhards would much rather have Huns and Chinese anyway in the versatile department, since no matter what TG just aren’t for trash units and counter units that aren’t camels.

Because 1 archer flank 2 cav pockets 1 tower flank is super different right? And fun especially when one side has a tower flank that has villagers three times as strong as the enemy tower flank right?

Or maybe if people actually played instead of posting rant threads or memes about the dead Incas or tier lists that say kamayuks and slingers are about as good as ele archers. Because, surprisingly, when there is so much noise about how BAD they are now and how much the tower rush was TOTALLY NEEDED and how their identity is 100% DEAD, people that didn’t care get flooded and eventually start believing it.

Pls define “meaningfull” because most civs can use several openings and most have at least two late game compositions. And most civs that only get one strong late game composition (like Celts or Mongols) have several ways to reach it.

Well first I actually play the game too, thank you very much (and I’m pretty sure the others do too), and second, his argumentation is only based on team games, and how the ladder works. Quid of 1v1s, or lobby games, or tournaments, be they organized by small communities or big events? Because if you don’t care only about team games and “proper RM” (still no idea what’ this is supposed to mean) there is plenty of room for Byz/Incas and the likes to shine.

There are still also other strategies, but removing this one has made the game that much less versatile. However, most often I see 2x archer flank, and 2x knight pocket, so I’m not too happy about changes that reduce other styles being played. It’s a personal issue for sure, but I get bored of super repetitive games. Microing a bunch of xbows is fun only so many times.

The civ was constructed to have a strong feudal age, so I am not surprised that a lot of people are unhappy with the change. I get that the civ is OK even post-nerf, and my problem is not with the post-nerf win-rates, it’s with the fact that this civ was a good inclusion into TG strategies, as well as a good meta-breaker for 1v1 when you get bored of playing the 20th Arabia map of the day.

I can symphatize. 1v1 is mostly Arabia, so it gets very old very fast for me. And I can also respect his view on TG, because a lot of civs get played exactly the same way based on position, regardless of what the civ actually is

You can still play tatars or magyars flank. Or Koreans pocket. They are completely justified alternatives.

Of course the game design focussing in only 2 power lines basically forces it to this stale teamgame meta, but different bonusses and UUs can have a huge impact, too.

Not even one week and you already discuss winrates?^^

To put it in perspective: Incas playrate decreased from 1,94% to 1,36%. Burgundians play rate increased from 1,08% to 4,27%.

Which basically means the percentage of games in which Burgundians was played by getting it randomly is verly low meaning, in turn, their winrate will naturally go up. Unless someone develops a model to balance winrate and playrate (which probably isn’t worth the time while also very difficult and controversial) winrates in new patches tell very little as soon playrates significantly go up or down.

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Burgundians are broken, and they will get a nerf for sure

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but wait, according to you, they balance 45-55%, which Burgundians are inside of, so they shouldn’t be nerfed. by your own logic.

furthermore at the highest level Burgundian winrates are only 51.43%, at most i see toning down their stable bonus and possibly flemish revolution (For low level play).

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Despite the winrate or whatever, their 50% discount eco bonus alone is more than enough to make them broken, same for their relics bonus and their UTs

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Guys you need to chill. It’s way too early for those numbers to be relevant.

Just look at 1650+ Elo… Incas have the number 1 win rate and Franks are below 50% win rate :smiley:
More examples? Then look at All Elo, Malay did receive some good buffs and are dropping in win rate. Portuguese did receive a minor buff that should not change a lot and yet they are skyrocketing.
Even more? Indians didn’t change at all and a lot of people thought they were really bad since losing Plate Barding Armor. In the 1250-1650 Elo range they have the number 1 win rate.

Let’s wait a few more days for the samplesize to increase and then get back to the topic.

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Agree. Better to leave the full blacksmith bonus for a new civ not able to trush so hard than leave half a bonus for incas. Free llamas as team bonus and a new civ bonus like 2x2 farms or smth like that.

I don’t think they need a buff that big.

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xD Sorry but burgundian eco is overall about at the same level as teutons or slavs. It’s still far away from powerhouses like chinese or vikings.
And this is reflecting if you can get all the techs as fast as you can without being punished.

Yes their eco overall is solid now, but it comes with a tradeoff. The only thing what is really broken is the flemish revolution.

Well, at higer elos they are balanced, but a lower elos their winrate was above 55% (at least 5 hours ago). I think this is due to flemish revolution being OP at lower elos only.

It is funny to see all 4 battle elephant civs below 50% WR. Burmese and malay may need help.

Time to buff battle elephant again?

Seems a bit to early to make any serious conclusions about the win rates. Give it another week or two and we will see.

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Again, their eco is broken.

Still is, but that is at the ELO range where people don’t even bloody micro. if were going based on those numbers we should buff every archer civ

is it? i don’t think its that strong - they still have to pay for all the techs even if they pay less. it takes longer to pay off wood upgrades when you have less people chopping wood. besides - when you’re a civ designed around power spikes you need something to help those power spikes - they absolutely need that good eco because long term their units will fall off against other civs units. don’t get me wrong - its one of the stronger ecos out there - at least up front - but long term the only thing different for them from other civs is the relics and the farms generating a small amount of gold.

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Yeah and this less is 50% which is like nothing. I don’y know how you can see someone can get heavy plow before start make a single farm is fine?! And what is the cost?! Horse collar cost 37 food, and heavy plow 62 food, where is the big problem for this?! You can even get your first 2 lumber camps ez too or at least the first one and the first 2 farm upgrades ez

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except its not 50% less. its 50% less FOOD. you still have to pay full wood price - and guess what? when you have less villagers working it takes longer to pay off that investment.

because farm upgrades are literally the worst type of bonuses their can be - Franks got free farm upgrades straight from the launch of the game -and were an awful civilization.
Teutons eco bonus was cheaper farms, and they were well below average for most their existence, and are now still low average. Sicilians literally got double farm upgrade bonus and were subpar.

and how long is it going to take to pay them off? think about it - most people don’t even get heavy plow in a game normally until late castle age because farm upgrades are RARELY WORTH THE INVESTMENT into them. so how game breaking is it really that they can do what they can do?

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You underestimate how these cheap upgrades will give you a power spike, this is even without talking about wheelbarrow, handcart and miningcamps upgrades, their eco stats will jump suddenly and the player will get a great advantage over anything

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considering the civ is all about power spikes it makes bloody sense - seriously. they lack bloodlines - so how good are their knights going to compare to knights from franks or lithuanians long term?

let me put it into perspective. in this video he gets the wood upgrade just after building his first lumber camp.

that costs him 50 food and 50 wood.
now by the end of dark age he has used the wood to build 3 more houses (75 wood), a mill (100 wood), and a barracks (175 wood). he has 329 wood left over when he hits feudal. he had 10 before the upgrade even
that means he chopped 350 wood (buildings) + 319 wood (bank). for a total of 669 wood. divide that
by 120 and times it by 100. means he would have had 558 wood without the bonus. a total of 111 wood extra was provided by earlier wood chopping.
but wait. he also had to pay 50 wood for that. which means he only got about 61 extra wood all told.
now lets look if he was celts. he chopped 558 wood. he would have chopped 558*1.15 = 642 wood as celts. without needing to invest 50 wood and 50 food into it.

Celts got 84 extra wood. for free. meanwhile Burgundians only got 61 extra wood. especially when you factor in that these don’t even consider the food cost required.
so is it really that much stronger then existing bonuses? not nearly as much as you seem to be blowing it out of proportion.

And he got both of frams upgrades and his farms were still have food until the last min in the game, and this video Viper himself said this is sick and his opponent was making pressure on him and he got wheelbarrow and handcart. Whatever the time or the amount, their bonus will make everything very smooth to them especially with their cheap stables and other eco/military bonuses. This will not last for so long because not only viper but every other single pro said their bonuse are broken, and actually it doesn’t even need a pro opinion to know how a 85food wheelbarrow and 150 food handcart and 37 food horse collar and 64 heavy plow to figure how they are broken.

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