Hmmm okay, let’s see you ride on a horse with a spear point facing up verses a sword and see how it goes… 
As to the hitbox, that could be the case, but they seem to bunch up closer together than knights ever do.
I wish I could lmao
It’s just aerodinamic, I might not be an expert but I feel like they should actually be slower moving forward than turning when holding a spear like that. Also the proper comparison would be comparing a spear pointing up with a spear pointing forward.
I agree in that the Spear-line should have 0.3 or 0.5 range. I’ve actually done a realism mod that has this. To compensate I tweaked the bonus damage of Pikemen and Halberdiers vs. cavalry and camels. With Steppe Lancers, they should cost 60f 40g, and the Cumans should not have Paladin or Halberdier to fight other players’ cavalry/archers with.
They’ll get nerfed for sure.
Also, I was wondering, how does anybody feel about taking bloodlines away from the Cumans? It’s a way to nerf them and to stop them being so much better than the Tartars.
This is why I said “or one of the first” if letting only 1 unit to attack is too few.
How did you come to this conclusion? My conclusion is, that units, which can’t attack on tile due to it being crowded would/should move to another tile with more space. Units can usually spread well enough.
I doubt, that using patrol for stacking is intended, because nothing in patrol description states this. It seems, that without patrol one can’t reliably create this effect. Also it seems unlikely, that having units packed tighter together than can be visually differentiated, is intended. If it is not intended, then it is reasonable for me to expect that my opponent should not be able to do it and accuse him of exploiting if he does.
It is true, that infantry and archers fit into tight places, but there are limits to that. Like can be seen from here stacked units fit so well together, that you can’t even differentiate how many are there. No historical reference supports humans fitting so tight. It has also been reported by people, that you can’t even count how many steppe imbalancers are stacked, because they overlap to such huge extent.
I think, that reasonable limit to attacking while stacked would be, that as many units as can be differentiated with eye, can attack.
If developers implement some limit to attacking while stacked, then it should definitely be applied to all units for uniformity. I see no reason to exclude some units from this.
I do, Steppe Lancers are overpowered.
If it’s a lot more work to change it for and units
and much less for just the SL, then please focus whre the bigger problem is. We figure the other civz out later.
In an all tech game, would everyone build Steppe Lancers? If so, it might be a tad overpowered.
technically yes, they’re not considered UU so everyone would get.
While I agree that they’re a strong unit, I have only two team games vs Cumans to use as data (and yes, two L). In short, what I’ve learned was that (and a friend suggested me also) I should try to wreak havoc as soon as I can and make more Steppe Lancers myself (if mirror)… I am not even sure of what to use as counter as everything I tried failed (archers, pike and even scorpions).
I really not a fan of having to play Cuman myself to just have a bigger army to “win” the battle. My first game against them I managed to hold a little more (but mostly because I’ve walled myself with towers and TCs arrows; second game was just a matter of when they are going to attack us with their stack of SL. Is turtling myself in a viable strategy?
Is making them more weak to their counter a good nerf in the end or too much nerfs would make SL loose their identity?
When balancing them it is important to consider, that unit has to be reasonably efficient when using them without stacking exploit. Otherwise people would be forced to use stacking to use them effectively.
But this brings the problem, that stacking would overpower them, unless stacking itself gets nerfed somehow.
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According to a recent youtube vid Kamayuks beat Steppe lancers in equal number. So I guess half the game will main Inca and the other half will min Cumans (faster to build farms vs double TC master race lol)
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Just had equal numbers fully upgraded halbs prolly around 70 vs elite step lancers … guess who won by A LOT…
This unit makes NO F… SENSE
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Anyone know if the Lithuanian bonus applies to them, if they convert Steppe Lancers?
I think as they are, they’re kinda weak. But with +5 relic attack, they might just barely be viable 
Yes, in fact nerfing them only against their counter is mainly so they still having an identity, if they nerf their overall strenght in general they could slowly become so weak there’ll be no real reason for anyone to even make them to begin with. Just look at the paladin, he’s a very strong and mobile unit, the only things that stop them from being unstoppable are his counters (aka halbs and camels). With the same logic, SL should be even weaker to those than paladins, since SL currently do much more damage than paladins while being much cheaper. Making them take longer to produce would also be good.
I was gonna say that’s bs but i did the test myself
the problem I can still see is that SL only need stables while Kamayuks need castles, and SL can easily disengage from a fight against them while they let their archers do their work, also it’s lame to have a game where only 3 civs are viable because of how OP a single unit is. anyway that’s great to know
Almost nobody is proposing to reduce their range or speed.
I’ve only proposed reducing their damage and preventing stacking.
How would that take away their identity?
Also, even if they’re overnerfed, that’s one unit that’s too weak.
Compared to 30 civs that are currently too weak.
Cumans will still have other units/bonuses to be a good civ.
Worst case scenario the SL will need a buff, why is that a problem?
Nothing against preventing the stacking tbh.
The thing I’m worried about is that I’ve seen countless times one unit/heroes in different games that were too OP against everything while they were supposed to be strong only against something specific. Then people would complain, the devs would nerf the unit’s overall strenght and then it’d become so weak no one would even use that unit again. This is what I don’t want to happen to the SL, the reason they are too strong is because currently there’s no units that counter them (other than the Kamayuk apparently), this is why the way I want them nerfed is to reduce their attack only against the units that are supposed to counter them. SL are a unit that are supposed to be weak individually and strong in mass, that they already nail correctly. The one thing I want is for them to lose against halbs and camels even if they’re massed. I’m pretty sure that if this is done they’ll be much more balanced, and most importantly they’ll still have their identity.
Also tbh? I think both Cumans and Tatars shouldn’t have access to paladin when they have SL and no other civ has them.
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I don’t think the dev will make the SL underpowered, and if that happens they should rebuff-it later. For the Cuman having paladin, maybe removing the last cavalry armor upgrade or blood lines would do the trick (and that way you also balance the kipchack/SL/instantly spawned horse archers). It would also be nice to have a civ that has no FU paladin but still can use them in an interseting/viable way (let’s be real if you’re Celts or Byzantines chances are you won’t touch knights after castle age)
I would balance Steppe Lancers by increase their gold cost to like 45 while keep the food cost at 70.
And Reduce base attack from 12 to 10. Also reduce cuman cav speed from 10% to 5-8%.
These nerfs should hurt Steppe Lancers a lot and then we can see how they will do and if need further nerfing react fast. Its a double nerf (in case of cumans even triple nerf) so should be fine.
Camels already doing well against them (had a 1vs1 Cuman War the other day and it ended in castle age we throw camels at each other cause steppe lancer were melting in the first fights against the enemy camels).
If these nerfs not enough maybe reduce attack by another 1 or 2, but that should be it i think. If you give them negative bonus attack or remove all attack bonus or all pierce armor they fast become useless cause they get totally destroyed by trash, by Town Centers , by everything…Also not sure if increase production time would be good since either games will not last to long and they feel bad or you have a long TG and they still feel broken.
They should be similar to kts just with that 1 range and different costs and stats but keep in mind as cumans you always decide: Do i go kts ==>chev==> Paladin or do i go Steppe Lancer==> Elite Steppe Lancer from stable… If steppe lancer to weak everyone will just go kts/pala and its just another civ which play kts zZz
Edit: So yes nerf Steppe Lancers but think about what your nerf will do
Your reaction implies changes can only go one way.
If they overnerf the unit they can always buff it again later.
Currently the game is totally broken, how about fixing that now?
Then we have the game in a playable state again.
Then we’ll worry about getting thinggs perfect.
Also this “good in large numbers” applies to almost every unit.
If you have enough monks you can convert all enemy units.
SL is one of the few cases where this really exceeds the normal because of the stacking.
But that’s also what makes it less fun.
Units should still be usable in small numbers.
Sure, it’s better to have more of them.
But the increase in power shouldn’t be exponential.
That’s not fun to play against.
I don’t like the gold cost increase or the speed boost decrease, but it would be better than nothing.